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56th FG Zemkes Wolfpack
The Outstanding P-47 Fighter Group Of WW2.
P47-M Colours. 61st FS/56th FG
t_burley
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Posted: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 02:22 PM UTC
great stuff here Nigel. As you know I had sent you pics of my 1/5 scale P47 I am just finishing up. It to is a 61st FS plane as HV-Z flown by Witold 'Lanny' Lanowski. Thru emails with his son Krys, he has also mentioned this plane was also as noted black.

lampie
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Posted: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 11:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

great stuff here Nigel. As you know I had sent you pics of my 1/5 scale P47 I am just finishing up. It to is a 61st FS plane as HV-Z flown by Witold 'Lanny' Lanowski. Thru emails with his son Krys, he has also mentioned this plane was also as noted black.




Hi Todd, and welcome.
Its very interesting that Krys Lanowski is saying his fathers plane was black, as its early 1970's colour profiles of Lannys HV-Z that appear to have started the colour debate. Notably, early publications always stated the 61st FS M's to be painted black.
Just goes to show that if something is said often enough it can become a "fact".

Heres an interesting angle on the 61st FS M's.
Little Friends lists 27 M's allocated to the 61st FS.
3 pilots have stated the aircraft were black. ( waiting to hear back from a 4th)
One pilots son has also stated the aircraft as being painted black.
Not all of the aircraft have allocated pilots confirmed as yet.
Of the 12 that do, we have 25 % of the pilots confirming they were painted black.

I shall leave it to the indivudual modeller can draw their own conclusions.
Nige
warlock0322
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Posted: Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 01:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text


No, its not a 61st FS P-47M thread.
Anyone care to take a guess?
Nige



No guesses here NIge, but cut us loose and we will set the record straight .

Come Nige out them we can take them

Paul
lampie
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 - 11:26 AM UTC
Sr-71 Blackbird
PaddyBarratt
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 - 10:40 PM UTC
1957 MG Magnet ?
lampie
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Posted: Friday, May 01, 2009 - 11:35 PM UTC
No,,,SR-71 Blackbird,,
SR-71 Blackbird.............
( theres an echo in here)
Nige
warlock0322
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 03:35 AM UTC
Are you kidding me!!!! A Blackbird painted Blue?!

Does that mean a Bluebird is really a shade of Top Secret Green?

Someone has spent way to much time with one of those Color Wheels.

Paul
lampie
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 04:27 AM UTC
Apparently the Sr-71's were painted a really dark blue ( almost black).
Its good to know that it's not just the P-47 junkies that are having colour debates.
Only difference is the amount of SR-71's available in museums to go and look at.

Nige

PaddyBarratt
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 04:35 AM UTC
The Blackbird at Duxford looks black !
warlock0322
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Posted: Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 10:28 PM UTC
I have been on the flight lines & in the hangers with those beauties and I can assure you they are Black.

Now in the arena the operated it may have looked blue due to being so black. ( Ya know the Plum/Black Debate).

Paul
bizarro1
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Posted: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 - 06:31 AM UTC
Anyone remember "AirSpace Model" magazine from 1969-70? There was an article about a modeller who used the old Monogram kit & painted a Jug all black, with red cowling ring, red codes etc. He referred to a picture of a crashed P-47 with a severely damaged tail so he couldn't confirm if the tail had a red rudder. I tried to post this before but I must've goofed something because apparently it didn't post, but that was a cool how-to magazine and I wish I still had them. I do have a coverless Vol. 1 Number 1 of that magazine.

Best Regards,

Mike
lampie
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Posted: Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 12:53 AM UTC
Hi Mike.
Thats a bit before my time, but only just.
The modeller was very likely refering to the "Joy Boy" crash photos.
I really enjoy looking through the old modelling books and magazines from the early seventies,( just when I was starting to build).It was all "state of the art" then, and just as much fun!
Nige
bizarro1
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Posted: Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 04:12 AM UTC
Hi Nige,

Yes, I too enjoy the old books and mags. "Modeller" had a lot of articles on P-47s. I remember one contributor was joyfully awaiting the then imminent release of Revell's 1/32 scale offering. He and several of the contributing writers, as well as myself, have a soft spot in our hearts for the "Jug".

Cheers,

Mike
t_burley
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Posted: Monday, June 15, 2009 - 03:10 PM UTC
have finished my 5th scale RC version of Lanny Lanowski's HV-Z. Maiden flight was June 14th, 2009. 92" span, 70CC gas engine, 31 pounds flying weight. I need to add my pilot, upper gear doors and tailwheel doors.

photos in my album above

cheers

Todd
kingtut
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Posted: Friday, July 30, 2010 - 10:44 AM UTC
I recall meeting Lanny Lanowski during the eighties when he was collecting for the Cheshire Homes. Even at that time there existed some mystery about the color "black"and we humerously agreed that we should refer to it as black olive! He readily admitted that the black acquired some additional tint. From a more critical view point it should be understood just how much flat black absorbs sunlight, and how a paint suface weathers when exposed to upper atmosphere temperature extremes, particularly black. (Black is usualy created by mixing red blue and yellow or cyan, magenta and yellow) Often red paintwork on cars will rapidly fade to a purplish bloom and it might well be this accelerated aging that caused the particular hue to the frequently quoted flat black. Not really a mystery, it's just what paint does.
lampie
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Posted: Monday, October 07, 2013 - 10:26 PM UTC
I recently obtained some more microfilm relating to the 56th and the 61st FS in particular.
The first P-47M's arrived at Boxted on January 19th. 25 aircraft in total. Engineering report for that month tells how all "In four days all the planes were painted and acceptance checks accomplished" with the hanger turning into an "assembly line overnight".

Primary source evidence there that the aircraft were painted in the Service Group hanger over a four day period in January 1945. This is further reinforced by entries in the 33rd Service group 41st Service Squadron monthly reports on the relevent microfilm.

February's 61st FS engineering report is even more specific, as it talks about our "black" P-47'Ms.

Of course, it doesn't identify the exact paint used. but what it doesn't say is out "plum" P-47M's,, our "midnight blue" P-47M's, our "P-47M's painted to match a dinner jacket lining", our P-47M's painted with whatever paint we could obtain from a local car dealers" etc etc.

An interesting document relating to painting Spitfires emerged recently, specifying the paint colours to be used. ( The relevence being that its often reported that the 56th used RAF colours on their aircraft).
For the stencils, wing walk lines etc that nobody would consider being painted anything else other than "black", the colour specified is "night".
This further reinforces my theory that "night" was the actual colour used on the "black" P-47M's.

Food for thought..

Nige

Removed by original poster on 03/18/14 - 12:11:04 (GMT).
DaneBramage
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 07:54 AM UTC
Do you that it is possible that a UK night fighter color was used? That makes sense to me. Do you think that was possible back then.
lampie
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 08:55 AM UTC
That's my best thoughts on everything after the research so far.
RAF Night.
:)
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 02:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Do you that it is possible that a UK night fighter color was used? That makes sense to me. Do you think that was possible back then.



Hi, All!!! It's quite probable that RAF paints were used on 56th Ftr. Grp. aircraft, specifically the "Flat Black" on 61st Ftr. Sq. P-47s towards the end of the war. Most of my references state that to be the case. The 56th probably used the greatest variety of camo schemes of any US fighter group in Europe, and there were even variable camo schemes within the same squadron at the same time.

I would rely on the testimony of surviving 56th Ftr. Grp. pilots and service personnel more than any color photos of the period- When using photos of the WWII era, much depends on weather conditions, the quality of the developing process, age of the prints and/or negatives, the abilities of the photographer and/or developer, exposure of the actual aircraft to ultra-violet light at altitude, plus a myriad of other factors as well...

I don't hold with the idea of lightening my paints for "scale-effect", either; I do however "weather" my 1/48 aircraft models, but only to the point where it's barely noticeable. Aircraft will only get a bit dirty and worn in certain places, unlike armor & softskins, which get filthy...

I don't go overboard with weathering on my 1/35 stuff either, since I don't do dios. Not that I'm incapable of doing dios for ANY of my models; it's a question of available space for display. All of my completed stuff is behind glass, museum style. I sometimes add figures to my 1/48 planes and 1/35 afvs just to display scale. I'm pretty good at painting figures- There are about 9 or 10 steps in just painting a face, depending on my subjects' age, exposure to the environment and/or cleanliness. I used to assemble and paint figures in 1/72-120mm, and also custom-build 1/48 aircraft, 1/35 afvs, 1/24-1/25 classic cars, 1/350 ships and HO (1/87) Steam-era trains and locomotives professionally, just to augment my income. I model strictly for my own pleasure, now... It's more enjoyable in not having to adhere to a schedule, especially when you are simultaneously building several different subjects for different customers.

But, I digress- I have quite a few TAMIYA 1/48 P-47s in 56th Ftr. Grp. camo schemes, just to show the variety, including a FLAT BLACK "M" flown by "Lanny" Lanowski. Actually, my FLAT BLACK "M" is painted in a kind of "SEMI-FLAT" BLACK, having been "waxed" by the ground crew... Robert S. Johnson, in his book "THUNDERBOLT!", states that his ground crew sanded down the rough OLIVE-DRAB paint on his '47, and then "waxed it until it shone like a new car". I built 2 of Johnson's '47s- "LUCKY" and "PENROD and SAM"...

Also built Frank Gabreski's P-47D (Bubble-top) HV-A in the "RAF DARK GREEN and RAF SEA GRAY over RAF MEDIUM SEA GRAY" camo scheme, along with several T-Bolts in other paint schemes, including a 4 or 5 in NATURAL METAL. I went just as nuts with my '51s...

Enjoy!!!
DaneBramage
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Posted: Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 03:32 PM UTC
"lucky" is my fave...
DaneBramage
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Posted: Friday, May 02, 2014 - 07:40 AM UTC
You can please remove this and the above quote.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Friday, May 02, 2014 - 10:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Often debated is the precise colour of the P-47M's of the 61st Fighter Squadron flying out of Boxted in 1945.
Delivered to the 56th in NMF the individual squadrons adopted their own colour schemes for these aircraft and its the 61st squadrons schemes that have been the subject of much speculation, so when the question was raised in the original SIG thread I wasnt surprised in the least.
Over the years these Thunderbolts have been described as being painted in purple,plum,black, red brown,and a mixture of automotive paint stocks amongst others.
Ive always upheld that the best way to find out any information is to ask someone who was actually there.
Luckily I was able to do this, and made contact with Russ Kyler, pilot of HV-J "Lorene". This is one of the decal options of the Tamiya P-47M kit.


The following are extracts from emails I recieved from Russ at the time.
The ORIGINAL 61st FS P-47Ms were painted "FLAT BLACK". In some photos (due to light refraction)
they have a kind of "purplish" look to them. Roger Freeman lists them as being "Flat Black" as does the book
titled "BEWARE THE THUNDERBOLT" by David R. McLaren. (Both are correct).



The different 61st
color schemes that are floating around the web sites are of someone imagining WHAT the color was and making their own wild guesses.
"FLAT BLACK" is flat black. (Period). You can ask any artist & they will tell you that all colors take on a slightly different color under
different lighting conditions; hence the wild differences that people dream up !!!!!


So there you have it, the 61st FS P7-M's were painted flat black.

Heres a photo of a 1:6th scale R/C model of Lorene constructed and flown by Dave Gianakos,and the gentleman on the left of the picture is Russ Kyler.

Note how inaccurate the Tamiya noseart decal is when compared to the real aircraft and Daves R/C model.
The up and coming VFS P-47M promises to be the most accurate depiction of "Lorene" available in a kit to date.

The R/C "Lorene" is on permanent display at the Evergreen Aviation Museum,McMinnville,Oregan.





You know what? The ad for the 56th Fighter Group Website at the bottom of this page shows "HV-B" looking almost BLACK/OLIVE DRAB- THAT IS JUST THE LIGHTING IN THAT PARTICULAR PHOTO, which is playing tricks once again...

I'm going to believe the veteran Pilots' and Ground Personnel's statements that the 61st's P-47Ms were painted FLAT BLACK over NATURAL METAL- So what's the argument..? How many photos of the latest new cars that are painted BLACK appear to be DARK BLUE, or any other colors that the human eye perceives to be other than BLACK..?

Many fighter organizations also sanded smooth and then WAXED" their aircraft to gain a possible "few extra miles per hour" to the maximum speed of the aircraft. A shiny surface of paint (especially black, white, and silver) will often appear to take on various colors of the surrounding environment...

Much ado over nothing"- To paraphrase Shakespeare...
Dogday
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 - 11:18 AM UTC
flat black..you all might be wrong...let me check...its a deep blue..like the US Navy BLUE uniforms look BLACK...really BLACk. I have a COLOR film source of Boxted planes by an ex pilot....his mom sent him color slide film...its a deep blue purple..not flat black...he still drives a stick shift car..age 93..
my dads collge roommate flew in 352fg...that BLUE NOSERs blue way different in 1943 vs 1945..

glad to be here...
Dogday
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 - 11:27 AM UTC
go
peter randall site..56th plane..SUE...my pal ernie pulled his canopy back and shot this plane in COLOR SLIDE film....it aint black...it aint flat black...