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P-47 Modelling: Cave Tonitrum!
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Ole Cock III Build
lampie
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 04:04 AM UTC
Hi Paul.
Thats a colourised version of this photo.

Dont rely on it for any colour references whatsoever.did you find it on the WW2 in colour site?

Regarding the chipping.
Ive read that some gear struts were painted olive drab.( no idea why,,anybody?? )
What appears to have happened in the photo of Bob Johnson earlier in the thread is that the olive drab paint has worn away exposing the metal strut.

Yes, you probably are thinking way to deep on this one.

Nige
:-H
PaddyBarratt
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 04:51 AM UTC
It might be that the struts would have been serviced in the field and hydraulic fluid is a paint stripper. You wouldn't leave the leg bare metal because it would corrode very quickly so they were painted after seal and fluid replacement with whatever colour was to hand......Just a guess.


A wheel earlier today !
warlock0322
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 05:04 AM UTC
Yes WW II in color site it was..

Maybe the OD Green on the struts were an attempt at some sort of Corrosion control. That being said it wouldn't be out of the realm to paint the struts OD Green then? Seeing the OD Green color was the most readily available paint.

Looking at the B&W pic you posted Nige. The shade on the far inner wheel cover and edge of the nearest well cover looks the same as the white invasion stripe on this monitor. Would that mean that they could have been painted white as well.... OH GOD here I go again.. I am going back to the bench and take a big swig of something fermented or brewed and start to glue, paint or mask SOMETHING!!

Thanks Again
Paul
lampie
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 05:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Seems like some pilots carried 6 instead of 8 guns to try ands shed a little weight. ( I am learning :-))



Sorry guys,,just picked up on this.
The only instances I know of having guns removed in service were on "Kokomo", which was Maj Bill Kepners ( head of 8th Fighter Command) personal aircraft. This aircraft with Kepner didnt fly combat missions.
Also, some, but not all, of the 5th ERS P-47s operated without a full set of Brownings.

No sane combat pilot would remove 25% of his killing power.

Nige


PS. Paddy, thats a restored P-47's wheel (UN-Z Duxford perchance? )and as with all restorations cant be relied upon for colour etc
lampie
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 05:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Looking at the B&W pic you posted Nige. The shade on the far inner wheel cover and edge of the nearest well cover looks the same as the white invasion stripe on this monitor. Would that mean that they could have been painted white as well.... OH GOD here I go again.. I am going back to the bench and take a big swig of something fermented or brewed and start to glue, paint or mask SOMETHING!!

Thanks Again
Paul




Paul.
Inner gear doors on Gabbys and other P-47s were not painted white.

Word of caution,,,
Model first............drink later.
Trust me,,,doing it the other way around just gets messy,,lol.
Nige
lampie
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 05:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

(The) edge of the nearest well cover looks the same as the white invasion stripe on this monitor.



Thats because the invasion stripes were painted over the gear covers.


Nige
PaddyBarratt
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 07:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Seems like some pilots carried 6 instead of 8 guns to try ands shed a little weight. ( I am learning :-))



Sorry guys,,just picked up on this.
The only instances I know of having guns removed in service were on "Kokomo", which was Maj Bill Kepners ( head of 8th Fighter Command) personal aircraft. This aircraft with Kepner didnt fly combat missions.
Also, some, but not all, of the 5th ERS P-47s operated without a full set of Brownings.

No sane combat pilot would remove 25% of his killing power.

Nige


PS. Paddy, thats a restored P-47's wheel (UN-Z Duxford perchance? )and as with all restorations cant be relied upon for colour etc



The wheel picture was just to show the flexable brake line.
The idea of saving weight came from one of the DVD's i got on the P-47....I will look to see which one. In fairness its only killing power if you have an enemy. If you have air superiority as in Italy then air to air armament might not be your priority.
jugstudy
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 11:36 AM UTC
Hi, guys,
Just took a winter storm break from house remodeling and ran across this thread. Admittedly, I am not a great authority on P-47s, but I might have some pertinent information regarding the O.D. gear legs and removal of one gun per wing. One modeler on another site claims he paints his gear legs O.D. based on specifications issued to manufacturers by the USAAF. May be true , I don't have his specific reference handy. As to the question of gun removal, early P-47's (particularly the "C") had severe range problems, even with the addition of drop tanks. I have read that some groups reduced the wing guns by one in each wing, along with the associated ammo, to partially address the relative short range of the P-47 by the weight savings. I found this bit of info while researching a "C" model jug flown by Nicholas Megura of the 4th FG.
Hope this can be of help.
Mike
lampie
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 11:56 AM UTC
Hi Mike.
Thanks for the info.
Looking further into this removal of a pair of guns to save weight I came across this photo dated 16/8/43 of Don Blakeslees heavily shot up P-47 on return to Debden.
As a matter of course the armament has been removed but it clearly shows the outer gun port is covered over.


Thats a new one on me, and in all the 4th FG accounts I've read its the first time I've seen this practice mentioned/photographed. A very extreme measure.
You learn something new everyday on this site
Nige
jugstudy
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Posted: Friday, March 27, 2009 - 01:06 PM UTC
Hi, Nige.
You all are most welcome. By the way, did you notice the gear legs in the photo you posted? They appear to be O.D.
Mike
warlock0322
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 12:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

(The) edge of the nearest well cover looks the same as the white invasion stripe on this monitor.



Thats because the invasion stripes were painted over the gear covers.


Nige



Dang I wish I could draw those arrows That was't the edge I was looking at Nige it was the inner edge by the wheel itself of the cover you highlighted that I was curious about.

I have no doubts about the color being the int green and have thrown out the color pic as a referance. Just though I would throw the pic out there for discussion and more than one set of eyes to look at.

As for Model first/Drink later. Sometimes messier is better

Paul
jugstudy
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 02:19 AM UTC
Hello, all. After I replied last night, I did some searching. I asked for definitive answers on Hyperscale and was kindly answered with the following. The source is Section VII, Finish specifications, P-47 aircraft, T.O. AN01-65BC-2 and Republic technical drawings. They state- Main landing gear legs were to be painted with 1 coat of zinc chromate primer and finished with one coat of Dark O.D.41. The requirements were later changed to allow an aluminum filled finish coat. Of note, they also specify all interior wing surfaces, including the gear wells and gear covers to be finished with yellow zinc chromate, and interior of the cowling to be unpainted anodized aluminum. The original author qualified his answer with some additional good advice. "Whenever possible, check photo references of the a/c you are modeling." Where these guys come up with their references always amazes me. That's all I have for now, will check back from time to time. Mike
PaddyBarratt
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 06:23 AM UTC
OK chaps
This is what i have come up with.
The P-47 had the capacity to carry more .5" ammo than the standard 300 rounds per gun. 300 was known as the light load, there was a heavy load but at presant i cant find how many rounds that was. The thinking was that if you were in a ME109 and yo were hit by 6 or 8 .5" guns the result would be pretty similar but if your aircraft was carrying 6 guns AND the heavy load + the Ammo for the missing guns then you could carry up to 50% more ammo and still be carrying less/same weight than a std 8 gun configuration. Thus you get far more trigger time. The P-47 didnt have the provision to turn some guns off like the Spitfire that could fire cannon or bullet or both. so yes a pilot might appear crazy to lose 25% of his hitting power...but not if he gains 50% more trigger time..



A 6 gun P-47 parked outside Tesco's this afternoon
lampie
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 08:10 AM UTC
Great info guys!
I wish I could find a P-47 outside my local Tesco
Nige
Tomcat31
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 03:58 AM UTC
I think this is the bit Paul is asking about (the red arrow)



It looks white to me
PaddyBarratt
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 04:50 AM UTC
I am 100% positive that is just bright light reflection similar to the tail wheel doors that also appear white. Dont forget that zinc chromate is a metal based paint that would light up under bright light and not absorb light like a Matt finish.
lampie
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 08:47 AM UTC
I have to agree with Paddy.
Its the sun reflecting off the edge of the gear door.
If you look closely at the shadows it appears that the sun is almost directly overhead.
Yes, we do have the occasional sunny day in Old Blighty
Nige
warlock0322
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Posted: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 - 01:32 AM UTC
Ok Gents & Ladies:

It has been a while since my last update. Due to work and just life in general just not much tie at the bench.

So with the limited time I have had this is what I have managed to get done.











That's about it for now. She is getting ready to paint and if I can manage to get a couple hours or so at the bench she may get her clothes on.

The white stripe like paint is MR Surfacer around the seams as insurance once smoothed out she should be ready to go.

Now a question I have and I know it has been asked before. What color was the inside of the flaps when posed in the down position? Were they the interior Green or Natural Metal? kowing the way and conditions the Crews has to paint them I have seen them either way.

Ok back to the bench and see you soon (I Hope).

Paul
PaddyBarratt
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Posted: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 - 05:17 AM UTC
Hi Paul
The composite P47 at Duxford has camo colours round the flat surfaces and chromate wheel well colour ends and hinges...But i am sure this would vary as you say..

y
lampie
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Posted: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 - 05:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Now a question I have and I know it has been asked before. What color was the inside of the flaps when posed in the down position? Were they the interior Green or Natural Metal? kowing the way and conditions the Crews has to paint them I have seen them either way.

Paul



Hi Paul.
Good to see some fine progress on Ole Cock III.
The exposed flap area on a factory delivered D-26 would have natural metal. Weather the camouflage pattern was painted over this area would depend on the position of the flaps when the individual aircraft was painted, and what the painters decided.
A general rule of thumb is that if the paint demarcation line across the raised flaps is uninterupted, then the painting was most likely done with the flaps up and the exposed area would be natural metal,as shown in this photo.


If it doesnt match, then the flaps were down when the camo was painted and demarcation line will run along the exposed area of the flap, as in this photo of Dave Schillings M.



So, its that old answer of "check your references" for the individual aircraft. If you cant find any to prove it either way, then the choice is yours
Nige
PaddyBarratt
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 - 10:15 AM UTC
Hi Paul
Having finally decided that i would go the Grey/ Green route I got another contact with a Guy in the US who is known as a P47 historian, Hal Marsman Sr..............and he said while we will probably never know now......He did his OLE C lll in Dark sea/medium sea Grey on top and Light sea Grey underside.....
so now i dont know again. Next thing will be to see what Dark medium and Light sea Grey translates into in the paint world. I know Tamiya do extra Dark sea/ Ocean and medium sea Grey but i need to check out what they actually look like. I dont think there is enough contrast between Extra dark and Ocean Grey to work.
He did mention that people use Ocean Grey and Barley Grey over medium sea Grey. Barley grey is a Humbrol Colour and is Std modern RAF grey used on Tornado F3s and the new Typhoon. It would add a good contrast with Ocean Grey but i think its lighter than meduim sea grey and i would expect the top colours to be darker than the underside

The obvious answer would be Ocean Grey or dark sea Grey and Medium sea Grey over bare metal underside.
.....i will let you know what i find........
warlock0322
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 - 10:17 PM UTC
Paddy:

Don't know if you have seen it or not. In the Wolfpack Forum Under the Ole Cock III thread I posted a pick of the Light Sea grey (XF-25 Tamya) & Polyscale's Ocean Gray. Over Tamiya's Dark Sea Grey(XF-54) background. To me the XF-25 just looks too Green to be a grey.

I am pretty much settled on the XF-54 for the top it's the Light or whatever ocean grey to go with it.

Looking foward to see what you find out and will be watching and looking myself intently. I have the Ocean grey on hand so I may just go with it but can waffle if something else surfaces.

Paul
warlock0322
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Posted: Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 08:40 AM UTC
Well after a long hiatus from the build thanks to life and work I finally have some progress to report.

Here are the invasion stirpes finally on and being th first time I tried this I am pretty much pleased with it. Still have some touch ups to go but here is where she sits so far





The colser i get to the end the more anxious I get. Well back at it. Hopefully will have another sooner rather than later..

Paul
lampie
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Posted: Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 09:57 AM UTC
Nice job Paul!
Mines going the other way round,,markings then invasion stripes
Its always an exciting part of the build when a plane starts to get its identity!
Keep up the great work
Nige
warlock0322
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Posted: Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 01:33 AM UTC
Well finally another update. I know it has been a while but she finally has at least her skin on.

I decided to go with the Gey on Grey Scheme that the decal sheet called for. opefully its close enough.











Now all to do is another coat of clearcoat, decals weathering and fiddly bits.

She's getting close and I am getting anxious.. Back to the bench and hope to have more to show soon.

Paul