login   |    register
56th FG Zemkes Wolfpack
The Outstanding P-47 Fighter Group Of WW2.
P-47M Colours 63FS/56FG
StevePM
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: July 25, 2013
entire network: 3 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Monday, July 29, 2013 - 08:32 AM UTC
Thanks Norris, that's great info and it sounds as if the LittleFriend profile is the one to use for Devastatin' Deb

Cheers

Steve
JudgeGrapner
Visit this Community
United States
Member Since: July 15, 2010
entire network: 26 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2013 - 06:05 AM UTC
As long as you realize that the camo and name are speculative - so far there is no picture to support that piece of artwork, just the related pilot description. And, of course the day YOU complete that model, someone will publish the darned picture of Deb!
Norris
DaneBramage
Visit this Community
United States
Member Since: July 22, 2011
entire network: 49 Posts
KitMaker Network: 10 Posts
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2014 - 03:41 AM UTC
Here's a new question for this thread- Were all of the M's of the 63rd unit markings in NMF with red outline or were some painted white? I am getting confusing information on both sides of this argument. Any help would be appreciated.

J
lampie
#029
Visit this Community
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Member Since: December 23, 2005
entire network: 6,240 Posts
KitMaker Network: 329 Posts
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2014 - 08:08 AM UTC
61st FS had the red outlines.
To the best of my knowledge all the 63rd FS M's that were painted had the nmf squadron codes.
Of the NMF M's the 63rd seems the most prominent as they were the last to transition.
General rule of thumb is that M's recieved after late April 45 remained in NMF.

Nige
DaneBramage
Visit this Community
United States
Member Since: July 22, 2011
entire network: 49 Posts
KitMaker Network: 10 Posts
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2014 - 09:17 AM UTC
Yeah because there has been an argument about "The Brat". The Set Decals I have are White.... I'm thinking about going with Bostick's "Z" now anyway I do want to do at least one b. job killer.
DaneBramage
Visit this Community
United States
Member Since: July 22, 2011
entire network: 49 Posts
KitMaker Network: 10 Posts
Posted: Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 05:27 AM UTC
So to clarify-
a). ALL the 63rd M Squad codes were NMF
b). were they all outlined in red?

TIA
lampie
#029
Visit this Community
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Member Since: December 23, 2005
entire network: 6,240 Posts
KitMaker Network: 329 Posts
Posted: Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 07:51 AM UTC
63rd FS M's which were painted in the blue camo scheme,
NMF codes, no red outlines, to the best of my knowledge.
The red outlines were 61st FS M's.
63rd FS M's which remained unpainted ( NMF), black codes.

As always, check your references for the individual aircraft you are modelling as there are exceptions to each and every rule.

DaneBramage
Visit this Community
United States
Member Since: July 22, 2011
entire network: 49 Posts
KitMaker Network: 10 Posts
Posted: Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 08:23 AM UTC
Do you think the 62nd FS disruptive scheme for the Ms were deliberate to confuse German Pilots? I'm sure from above especially they might be mistaken for a 190 by a rookie of which there were many at that point of the War.

Which squad had the most Me-262 kills? (I love the nickname they used for for the jet LOL)
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Member Since: May 02, 2013
entire network: 4,332 Posts
KitMaker Network: 20 Posts
Posted: Monday, April 28, 2014 - 04:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text


63rd colors, Dottie Dee II and Devastatin Deb ….

Dottie Dee II
Dottie Dee I was a Jeep (!) Nigel, I think I may have relayed the story about the name to you at some point.

The Lt blue checker on the nose art is correct.

I spent an afternoon with Charles McBath (Dottie Dee pilot) years ago. He used to drive around in an RV and had several large pressure sensitive discs featuring Lt Wolf with the light blue “hatch work” background. He would put on the sides or back of the RV & replace when worn out with another.

I do own a color photo of his M – before the name was applied. It’s a close up of the artwork of Lt Wolf and there is definitely a very light checker or “hatch work” pattern, in light blue.

The name, Dottie Dee II was applied AFTER the buzz letters were applied under the left wing. I had that added to the 2nd release of Dottie Dee for both AeroMaster and SuperScale. The 2nd release by AeroMaster also has the blue “hatchwork” applied to the disc. (It was not on the 1st AMaster release.)

Paint scheme
Using the Dottie image, the Cowling dark ring color IS darker than the fuselage dark blue and looks as though it might be black. However, the outer stripe around the Lt Wolf art IS definitely black and the dark cowl color IS lighter than that outline. The fuselage color is weathered – flat in places but also “eggshell” or satin/semi gloss finish.- possibly from engine heat/fumes from the upper cowl flapa area. The cowl ring red is glossy. The very dark “ring” color around the cowl is dead flat and is NOT weathered. If it wasn’t for the black outline on the artwork, I’d say it was flat black compared to the dark blue fuselage color.

A bit of the lighter blue can also be seen around the cockpit. It is more blue than that in color images of Bostwicks plane – but closer to Bostwicks than the blue on the color image of UN*A on pg 114 in Mighty Eighth in Color; Warpaint & Heraldry, by Freeman. All color image differences might be chalked up to whatever media you are looking at and quality of same.

McBath also had a wooden P-47 model that his crew chief made for him and painted with the actual 2 blue paints used for his P-47M. The lighter color IS blue, for sure. The exact shade – well, it is hard to say as the C/C also gave the model a coat of shellac. While it did nothing much to the dark blue, the lighter blue had a slightly “yellow” tint to it - common when shellac is applied over a light color and aged. It was definitely blue, but that’s about all you could tell. I would have liked very much to have taken some thinner to clean off that shellac ….

I have talked to several pilots and crew and no one knew the origin of the color scheme. Richard Leo, who was Fahringers’ ’ C/C on Devastatin’ Deb, was the only one to elaborate and told me that he thought they may have mixed a lighter color with the dark blue to get the lighter blue. Other than that, I can only add that Walt Flagg (Darling Dottie/Shoot You’re Faded) told me that when flying on a nice day, he could not see this scheme more than half a mile distant. Must have worked pretty well when you consider the popularity of blue/blue camo schemes over the years – especially on modern US adversaries/aggressor aircraft and Soviet fighters!

I think the bottom line about the color is that we probably will never know the colors used.
Personally, I would be comfortable painting a 63rd M model in Insignia Blue/ Azure Blue but thinking “out of the box”, might also look at US Navy ANA 623 semi gloss Dark Sea Blue with ANA 608 Intermediate Blue.

Fahringers’ P-47, Devastatin’ Deb: the artwork that Nick King did for Little Friends came via Bob McCormack, a 56th FG enthusiast (and all around P-47 “nut”- as many of us are...) Bob visited Farhenger and got the description from him. There were no pictures – it was all descriptive. If memory serves, Bob told me that Farhinger drew what he thought it looked like on a napkin.


Norris



Hi! I think that I'd be more inclined to use the US INSIGNIA BLUE with the RAF color AZURE BLUE, or maybe even RAF PRU BLUE, rather than ANA 623 SEMI-GLOSS DARK SEA BLUE over ANA 608 INTERMEDIATE BLUE on my next 1/48 TAMIYA P-47M. I'm not saying that you're wrong- anything is possible...

I'm thinking that it would probably have been easier to use US INSIGNIA BLUE, in that this color would probably have been on hand already, since it was the standard color for US insignia. The RAF AZURE BLUE or RAF PRU BLUE would probably have been easier to obtain from the RAF on short notice, since there were times when US fighters shared space with RAF aircraft in Great Britain. We should remember that there was a lot of swapping going on between the RAF and the USAAF during WWII- Witness the use of RAF headphones taped into US Flight Helmets, our use of RAF Beaufighters and Mosquitoes, and US Jeeps- You get the idea...

ANA 623 DK SEA BLUE and ANA 608 INTERMEDIATE BLUE were colors primarily used by the US NAVY on their aircraft, so I'm disinclined to think that the 63rd got these colors from the Navy. There wasn't much of a US Naval air-presence in England aside of ships that were involved in transport, convoy escort, and ultimately the specialized landing craft that had been amassed for the Invasion. Trivia: The US Army actually had control over more ships during WWII than the Navy did- hard to believe, but true!

US Naval aircraft flying from the small Escort and "Jeep" Carriers and land-based patrol aircraft in the Atlantic Theatre were usually painted a color very similar to FS36118 GUNSHIP GRAY on the topsides over INSIGNIA WHITE undersides, which rapidly turned off-white, and also showed much oil and exhaust staining for obvious reasons.

I've got to wonder though, if the lighter, brighter BLUE used on the 63rd's P-47s might have been painted RAF PRU BLUE in conjunction with US INSIGNIA BLUE? I'm just guessing, but isn't it likely that the USAAF 653rd Bomb Squadron's PRU BLUE Mosquitoes might have dictated having some PRU BLUE paint on hand for touch-ups and/or repair?

Then again, what about the possibilities of obtaining some lighter blue color from some US Photo-Recon Group flying Spitfires or F-5E Lightnings? Just a thought...

Then there's also the possibility of mixing INSIGNIA WHITE with INSIGNIA BLUE? That would have negated scrounging, begging, swapping or stealing paint from other organizations. Any thoughts on that?