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56th FG Zemkes Wolfpack
The Outstanding P-47 Fighter Group Of WW2.
Gabreski's P-47D-25 on D-Day...
lesofprimus
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Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 - 08:47 AM UTC
Hey guys, first post....

Im a Moderator at ww2aircraft.net and Im about ready to start the Hasegawa 1/32 Gabreski kit for our D-Day/Invasion Stripes Group Build... I take pride in the detailing of my models and this one is no different... I want to do this kite as it looked on June 6th, so there will be 22 kills on it...

I want to get this one right, so where else better to come than the knowitalls here...

Ive got a plan to remove the panel over the engine on the port side, but have not been able to find a ref pic showing this, only 2 modelers interpertations....

Ive gone through ur forum here looking for anything related to Gabreski, and besides the one build from Luthier Tom, which has a few innacuracies, theres not much.... I found some pics from the movie that Nigel clipped out and they were a big help in that there were no black bands on the top wings, just the white...

Were these also black bordered like the fuselage top stripes??

Pretty much got the camo colors figured out as per some ur discussions here... Great informative stuff fellas...

Also went through and grabbed a few shots of Nigels walk around... I know its not a D model, but it helps, thanks for that Nigel...

Lookin for some shots of HV A that I dont have as well.... If need be I can post up what Ive got on my comp to make it easier, lemme know....
lesofprimus
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Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 - 10:57 AM UTC
Since its seems to be scattered here and there, heres all 13 pics I have on HV A, including the 2 best profiles Ive been able to find....... Any better versions of pics I already have are GREATLY appreciated....















lesofprimus
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Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 - 11:33 AM UTC
As I stated in my first post, Im going to portray his crate as it was on D-Day, so any corrections to the top profile to reflect this would be extrememly beneficial....

Things Ive noticed:
There is yellow overspray around the white serial number... Could this be correct???
The black stripes on the lower fuselage look unfinished, not solid black... Whats the general opinion on these???
The black striped area does not go over the turbo charger exit hump... Should it??
LuthierTom
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Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 - 12:47 PM UTC
Hi Dan!

Welcome aboard!

I agonized over Gabby's D-25 paint scheme just as much as you are. The configuration and appearance in late June 1944 and in mid-late July 1944 is well documented and is as you have described. The best I could come up with for June 6, though, was the verbal description in Gabby's autobiography (Gabby, A Fighter Pilot's Life, Schiffer Military History, 1998). Gabby and his crew chief both state that black and white stripes were applied to the wings and fuselage. I interpreted that to mean full invasion stripes and painted my model accordingly. So, what I did is an educated guess. If at some future date a picture of the airplane surfaces which was taken on June 6 or shortly thereafter we can both revisit the subject. In the meantime, the best advice I can give you is the same advice an IPMS NATS winner gave me: you're the one who will have to look at it on your shelf for the next 20-40 years so build it so you are happy with it.

To answer a couple of your specific questions,

I believe the serial number on the tail was yellow. The serial number was most likely sprayed through a stencil. In that case it would make sense for there to be yellow overspray around it.

I leave my turbocharger hoods and the raised panel behind it unpainted (well, actually painted a jet exhaust color). These were very high temperature areas and would have probably burned or baked off any paint applied there.

Cheers from your fellow perfectionist,

LT
lesofprimus
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Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 - 01:44 PM UTC
Thanks for the reply Tom...

Ur model is very well done and I commend u on the research u put into it.... My interpetation of Gabreski's book concerning the stripes, as well as the documented pics leads me to believe that the upper surfaces did not have the black stripe portion...

Also, Ive met Col Gabreski a couple times back in my days on Long Island, and do remembering him commenting that his stripes for June 6th were "out of the ordinary", which I believe adds further credability to the lack of black on the upper surfaces....

Also, there is no mention of his crew going back and over painting the black with camo, and then overpainting the white later on...

But I have to agree with u on 100% of ur post, it is the builders choice...
lampie
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Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 - 06:40 PM UTC
Hi Dan.
Welcome to the site.
Basically I would second everthing Tom has said regarding the turbo hood and serial.
On June 6th though, like every other allied aircraft that day, Gabreski's HV-A would have carried full black and white "invasion stripes", regardless of an individual pilots opinion.
Nige
lesofprimus
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Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 - 11:34 PM UTC
Appreciate the confirmation and words Nigel... Full stripes huh??? I have to rely on ur knowledge and expertise on the subject, regardless of what Ive heard from the man himself.... As he admitted in the past, his memory aint what it used to be...

Do u believe there would have been the black tape border on the white seperating the black stripe??

Any other pics out there on his crate?? Kinda surprised a pic doesnt exist showing full stripes... He had over 20 kills at the time and would have had some notoriety... Any other pics from D-Day concerning the 61st or 56th that can be used to compare???

One more question, the spinner cap was white or silver, not sure on this???
lampie
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Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 08:21 AM UTC
On June 6th 1944, every single engined fighter in the 8th and 9th Air Force, whether piloted by a Group Commander or a raw replacement straight out of Atcham, flying over the Normandy beachhead would have carried full black and white invasion stripes.Thats just my personal opinion.
Any variations and customisations on individual aircraft carried out at a later date is another matter altogether, but its D-Day itself that is the subject of this particular thread.

As Ralph Safford recalled in "Gabby, A Fighter Pilots Life"

" We started about 3pm (on June 5th) with routine mantenance of the plane plus painting the stripes.When we painted the invasion stripes we used a British paint that was very heavy in texture and hard to spread. We had to hurry the job; even so it took us four hours to complete. I thought it was a sloppy job, but I guess it answered the purpose"

Quoted Text


Also, there is no mention of his crew going back and over painting the black with camo, and then overpainting the white later on...


Maybe they didnt have to overpaint the stripes?
The quality of the paint and the finesse with which it was applied varied widely.
The diarist of the 404th Fighter Group records how the freshly painted black and white stripes "washed off in streaks" in the rain before the invasion,and were quickly repainted before the aircraft flew any missions.
This tells us that for that particular group at least the paint used was waterbased, so it could have been possible to remove the black sections of the bands on Gabreski's aircraft without having to repaint the camouflage underneath.
Actually when you consider this option further, the thin bands on the edges of white stripes around the fusalage could have been applied to obtain a neat border after the removal of the black areas?
As to weather they were a type of tape or painted I dont know, but there was certainly some medium used in that area.
Regarding other photos of this particular aircraft and others of the era in general. What you see in books and on the internet is only a very small percentage of the photos that were taken at the time.The usual suspects appear again and again, reproduced to varying standards and its not until one sees an original print that one realises how poor many of the reproductions in the publcations are in many cases.
I have recently been lucky enough to have been sent scans of a pilots photo scrapbook from the time. Over 100 pages each averaging around 4 photos of unpublished photographs. Thats just one album, and there are many thousands of other photographs which will probably never be published. What we see on the bookshelves and webpages is just the very tip of an extremely large iceberg.

Quoted Text


Any other pics from D-Day concerning the 61st or 56th that can be used to compare???



This 62nd FS aircraft wouldnt have won any awards for neatness.
As for the spinner on the Hamilton prop, it looks unpainted metal to my eyes on all photos I've seen.
Hope this helps
Nige

EDIT.
Just to clarify, this photo posted earlier is reversed and actually shows the port side of the aircraft.
lesofprimus
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Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 10:38 AM UTC
Great stuff Nigel, thanks for the reply and the much needed info....

I knew about the reversed pic, just wanted to show u guys exactly what pics Ive got.... My buddy Bill Marshall just sent me a high rez shot of HVA, the same shot below with the fuel truck, but its 3759 x 2285....

Huge I tell ya, but man the detail I can see now is great... If u or anyone here wants it, I'll upload it no prob... Lemme know...

Oh, and just to give u alittle background, my Grandfather was a Blacksheep, so Ive been around the proverbial block a few times....
lesofprimus
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Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 11:02 AM UTC
Ive also got another little gimmick that needs some clarification.... Ive been kickin it around over at my site and so far no answer/reference....

Ask the right people once again....

I want to customize this kit alittle bit.... Ive gotten some solid info that the flaps and elevators could have been in the down posistion waitin for Gabreski to jump in, but the rudder most likely would have been centered up....

Sound about right???

Im also gonna go whole hog on the supplied engine, with the intention of leaving off just the one engine cover on the port side.... Here's my dilemma, in all my research, as well as 2 other fellas who know the Jug pretty well, I havent been able to find a picture actually showing this.... Seen pics with all the cowling parts removed, but not just the one sheet....

Ive found a modeler who did a pretty good job on this kind of presentation, and I like it, but without actually seein it in real life so to speak, Im hesitant to do it...

lampie
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Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 12:12 PM UTC
Hi again,

Quoted Text

I want to customize this kit alittle bit.... Ive gotten some solid info that the flaps and elevators could have been in the down posistion waitin for Gabreski to jump in, but the rudder most likely would have been centered up....

Sound about right???



Most photos of parked P-47's show the flaps in the up position, but its your model. If I have the choice I tend to build most of mine with the flaps down but thats just because I like the "animation" it gives to the finished model.,however the one I'm working on at the moment will have them in the up position.
The rudder is usually seen centred, but thats because if theres nobody sitting in the cockpit pushing on the rudder pedals then they would revert to the neutral position.
Elevators are normally seen with a slight droop, ie stick slightly forward, most probably due to the effect of gravity on them while parked.

Quoted Text


Here's my dilemma, in all my research, as well as 2 other fellas who know the Jug pretty well, I havent been able to find a picture actually showing this.... Seen pics with all the cowling parts removed, but not just the one sheet....

Ive found a modeler who did a pretty good job on this kind of presentation, and I like it, but without actually seein it in real life so to speak, Im hesitant to do it...



And so you should be, because its not right at all.Nice model though.
The cowling was made up of four sections. Bottom, two sides and top.
I have photos of single sections removed, but I'm away from my references however with what I have stored on the laptop you should be able to see quite clearly how the cowling comes apart.
Heres an assembled cowling. Note the position of the clips.

The front clips hold the front part of the cowling sections together only.
The middle and rear clips attach the cowling panel to the mounting rings.
The attachment points are highlighted on the photo


P-47 cowling clips.


The bottom section of the cowling removed.


And a photo from 1943 or possibly early 44 showing a port side cowling panel.


The relevant page in the p-47 parts manual

Note that this is for a C model and the left and right cowling panels are extended slightly because of the lesser number of fins in the cowl flaps.


That should give you all the information you need

Nige
lampie
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Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 12:19 PM UTC
Bottom section removed and port side coming off.

Nige
lesofprimus
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Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 02:08 PM UTC
Brilliant.....

Perfect answer my man.... Thank u considerably...
ZacharyBaughman
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Posted: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 02:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I knew about the reversed pic, just wanted to show u guys exactly what pics Ive got.... My buddy Bill Marshall just sent me a high rez shot of HVA, the same shot below with the fuel truck, but its 3759 x 2285....

Huge I tell ya, but man the detail I can see now is great... If u or anyone here wants it, I'll upload it no prob... Lemme know...

[ ]



YES PLEASE!!! There's some great info in this thread. Keep it going!

Zack
lesofprimus
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Posted: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 12:20 PM UTC
Actually just received another pic I didnt have before form my Buddy Terry on the other side of the pond... Pretty good shot...


lesofprimus
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Posted: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 12:26 PM UTC
Awwww, the site automatically downsized the second pic to 800 x 600.... Crapballs...

If anyone wants it in real size, I'll email it to u...
md72
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Posted: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 01:05 PM UTC
Remember, that ALL of the invasion stripes were painted on in one damn big hurry on June 4 and maybe on the 3rd as well. I doubt that every crew chief was as dedicated to contest ready paint the way modelers are.
lesofprimus
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Posted: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 01:08 PM UTC
Very true Mark, thanks....
Tomcat31
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Posted: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 10:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Awwww, the site automatically downsized the second pic to 800 x 600.... Crapballs...

If anyone wants it in real size, I'll email it to u...

Unfortunately this is the standard setup across the whole of the Kitmaker network to help cut down on bandwidth.

PM sent with email addy
ZacharyBaughman
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Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 03:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Awwww, the site automatically downsized the second pic to 800 x 600.... Crapballs...

If anyone wants it in real size, I'll email it to u...



I'd love a full size copy! You could send it to zbaughman@eaa.org.

Thanks!
lampie
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Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 03:39 AM UTC
I'll take one as well please.
nigel.julian@kitmaker.net
Nige
lesofprimus
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Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 12:47 PM UTC
Sent it out to u guys, both pics....

Now Im on the hunt for a correct (as correct as can be lol) D-Day profile to work off of, as well as operational pics showing the port side panel removed...
lesofprimus
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Posted: Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 01:22 AM UTC
Im having to revisit the issue concerning the black bordered white stripes guys... As we're sure that on D-Day Gabbys plane had full stripes, does there seem to be evidence that the black borders were there, or are we sure they were added later on with the removal of the black uppers???

Hope everyone got the pics I sent, no comments?
lampie
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Posted: Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 01:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Im having to revisit the issue concerning the black bordered white stripes guys... As we're sure that on D-Day Gabbys plane had full stripes, does there seem to be evidence that the black borders were there, or are we sure they were added later on with the removal of the black uppers???

Hope everyone got the pics I sent, no comments?



Got the photo thanks.
Why would Safford have applied borders on the afternoon of June 5th? Get the aircraft good to go and paint those stripes on so they can get done for the day sounds like the most likely scenario.
It was a hurried and sloppy job according to Ralph Safford himself, and he should know!
Borders added at some point after, but not on D-Day.
Nige
lesofprimus
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Posted: Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 02:19 AM UTC
Thanks for the confirmation Nigel, had to ask....