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56th FG Zemkes Wolfpack
The Outstanding P-47 Fighter Group Of WW2.
Gabreski's P-47D-25 on D-Day...
lesofprimus
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Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2010 - 01:44 PM UTC
Still a couple nagging questions, unsure what the interior of the pit was (khaki green or green zinc chromate) , if the undersides of the elevators with the black stripe were NMF or Medium Sea Grey, and if there were infact those same black stripes on the upper surface as well...

After sending the pic to Pro Modeler Wayne Little, the following things were noticed:

1. The front lower cowling certainly looks Medium Sea Grey to me, if it were NMF it would have a brighter reflective appearance I would think… even though the image looks to be taken on an overcast day.
2. The drop tank is painted and not NMF.
3. Now, the undercarriage leg cover ‘looks’ NMF to me, much brighter, certainly when
compared to points 1 & 2.
4. However, the small hatch on the U/C door is a lighter colour, could this be NMF and the door Medium Sea grey or even dirty NMF for that matter?
There should not be 2 different colours here in such a short time if it was painted, granted, could be replacement cover of course…..?
5. Outer lower wing could well be NMF, the possible giveaway here is the reflection on the
Aileron attachments being rather bright and reflective.
6. Now here is a good one for you….from Bill’s large image it appears we have some more Black Tape on the outer underwing white stripe!
7. Even looks like there is some tape on the Inner stripe too, with a bit missing showing NMF underneath!
8. Tail plane has a light coloured area, probably reflection from NMF surface rather than Medium Sea Grey.
9. There is a Black stripe on the underside of the tail plane, would expect that this was
overpainted if surface was medium Sea Grey, wouldn’t you think?
10. Spinner –Bright NMF.
md72
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Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2010 - 02:07 PM UTC
I'm aware that a warning order went out before D-Day. Many crew chiefs may have responded to this order by priming a section of the A/C before the actual details of the invasion stripes came down. In doing researh on a B-26 years ago I noted that the natural metal finish planes tended to have 6 or 7 stripes. It seems that the planes were primered (in some cases with Olive Drab) in the general locations per the warning order and the 5 invasion stripes were painted over the primer. AMT / Aurora captured this in the decals for their 1/48th B-26. My sample has 6 stripe invasion stripes, W-B-W-B-W-B instead of the traditional W-B-W-B-W.

The border you are seeing may be a result of this same warning order. I doubt that in the rush to D-Day someone stopped to pretty up the stripes.
lampie
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Posted: Thursday, March 04, 2010 - 07:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm aware that a warning order went out before D-Day. Many crew chiefs may have responded to this order by priming a section of the A/C before the actual details of the invasion stripes came down.
The border you are seeing may be a result of this same warning order. I doubt that in the rush to D-Day someone stopped to pretty up the stripes.



I would very much like to see a copy of this "warning order", if one exists?

No such order was recieved by the 56th FG. On the afternoon of the 5th June the ground crews were told their aircraft had to be taken to the hanger. On the floor of the hanger were buckets of black and white paint and brushes. When anybody asked what the stripes were for they were told to not ask questions and just paint. (Frank Gydik, 63rd FS 56th FG)
Nige
md72
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Posted: Friday, March 05, 2010 - 03:26 AM UTC
Well, I thought my source was Jerry Scutts "B-26 Marauder Units of the Eight and Ninth Air Forces". But I'm not able to tie it to any page of that book this AM.

There are several photos in the book of B-26's with "borders" around the stripes and several of the color plates show OD bands on NMF planes that are wider than the stripes. AMT produced markings for Big Hairy Bird 6B-T SN 42-96165(?) that match the 6 stripe pattern shown in a color plate and a B&W photo in the text.

I don't think those bands got there by accident, and there would have been very little time to apply and dry a primer before applying the stripes to thousands of aircraft. There must have been an order.
stonar
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Posted: Friday, March 05, 2010 - 06:40 AM UTC
The 8th AF started removing upper wing stripes on about 6th July '44 though the official amendment to Operational Memorandum 23 allowing the removal of wing stripes was issued by SHAEF on 19th August,stripes to be removed from 25th August. I can't remember seeing six stripes though I stand to be corrected if someone's got a picture.The orders,however, were quite specific. The only O.D. I've seen in this context was used to OVERPAINT previously applied stripes. Priming before application I just don't buy. There are far too many first hand accounts of the last minute rush to get the stripes on and far too many images of their sometimes erratic application.
The 404th FG (9th AF) applied stripes on the evening of Saturday 3rd June only to have them wash off the next day. They reapplied the paint and had most the aircraft ready by the night of Sunday 4th. They then sweated for the entire 24 hr postponement hoping the paint wouldn't get washed off again. Not a lot of priming involved. There are other accounts of units running out of paint and having to send vehicles off secured bases,with considerable difficulty, to get more.
Cheers
Steve
md72
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Posted: Friday, March 05, 2010 - 08:59 AM UTC
Big Hairy Bird with what looks like 6 stripes (in B&W)

lampie
#029
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Posted: Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 01:40 AM UTC
References Ive found to the B-26 shown in the photo refer to the "non regulation" invasion stripes. Actually, you get some very interesting results on Google if you just search for "Big Hairy Bird" without a B-26 prefix,,!?!?
Non regulation is fine, in the same way as Gabreski's aircraft had the black sections of the upper fusalage stripes removed was non regulation. Naturally, there was no "order" issued for the removal of these upper black bands.
As far as 8th Fighter Command, and indeed all of the units flying on D-Day goes, there is no evidence of any order regarding "priming" aircraft that I have found, or indeed ever heard of until a couple of posts ago.
The extra stripes on B-26's ( one at least anyway), is certainly worthy of further discussion. However, thats a subject for the general Aeroscale forum and not the P-47 SIG.
Nige
stonar
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Posted: Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 01:46 AM UTC
Nice picture,corrected I stand! (It's a fair cop,I'll come peacefully,no need for the handcuffs)
Thanks for showing.
Cheers
Steve
Edit:
Good excuse to show a nice picture of a standard set supposedly on D-Day. There is plenty of shipping below. Not a rebuttal,just a nice picture.

Steve
md72
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Posted: Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 07:37 AM UTC
I can't prove the order exists, so I concede Nigel's point that it was unauthorized. But I remain hopeful that it might show up. Since I've seen several B&W photos of NMF B-26's with borders or odd number I assume it was a common practice.

My point to the original poster remains. The stripes were applied in a hurry, in inclement weather by inventive crews who probably didn't follow every order to the letter. The last thing on their minds was how armchair historians would interpret their work 66 years later.

So let's get back to modeling!
lampie
#029
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Posted: Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 02:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

So let's get back to modeling!



Absolutely!
Nige
jsontag
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 05:28 AM UTC
I too would love a full size copy. Send it to: j_sontag@hotmail.com
lampie
#029
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Posted: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 05:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I too would love a full size copy. Send it to: j_sontag@hotmail.com



Check your mail, ( and your junk mail incase its gone in there).

Nige
eagledoc2000
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Posted: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 08:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Awwww, the site automatically downsized the second pic to 800 x 600.... Crapballs...

If anyone wants it in real size, I'll email it to u...

Unfortunately this is the standard setup across the whole of the Kitmaker network to help cut down on bandwidth.

PM sent with email addy


I would love a copy
BigJugs
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Posted: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 12:56 AM UTC
The order was given on April 18. Far enough time to contemplate the application. There are pictures of very nicely sprayed stripes on USAAF aircraft. Given the fact that other units also employed the outlined stripes, it would seem it might have been a unit competition to do nice for some pilots.





lampie
#029
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Posted: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 12:42 PM UTC
Interesting that section 2 B notes that the application of the "distinctive markings" does not apply to gliders.
So somewhere there must be an revision of this memo as photos clearly show that gliders carried the "invasion stripes".
Nite all,
Nige
stonar
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 07:21 AM UTC
[quote]The order was given on April 18. Far enough time to contemplate the application. [quote]

Errrr no it wasn't.
Paragraph 5 Briefing,i.e.when the order is disseminated to the people who will have to carry it out.



It's even underlined in the original.

Anyways, I came back to this thread with a question which the photos already posted have answered...thanks

Steve

lampie
#029
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Posted: Sunday, August 12, 2012 - 11:11 AM UTC
Got a jug on the go Steve?



Nige
stonar
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Posted: Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 12:40 AM UTC
I have,expect inane questions shortly!
Steve
66misos
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Posted: Sunday, July 06, 2014 - 09:35 PM UTC
Hi,
this is my first post on this forum. I hope you do not mind I reopened this thread.

We had the same discussion at ARC. After considering outcomes from your previous discussion and comparing a lot of photos it shows that:
1.) bottom side of the horizonal stabilizer was in NMF with black ETO,
2.) at least outer half of the bottom side of the wing was NMF.

Your comments and/or corrections are more than welcome.
Regards,
66misos
66misos
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Posted: Tuesday, July 29, 2014 - 12:35 AM UTC
Hi,
this photo

shows interesting detail - bright fuselage with the evident dark panel lines and rivets bellow the left wing.
I was not able to find something similar on the matt grey painted surfaces.
However it is quite usual on the NMF as seen on this photo mix - Gabreski's plane is in the red rectangular:
66misos
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 - 09:24 PM UTC
Hi,
This photo

shows square pattern on the main wheel tires.
Here at barracuda.com are 3 optional main wheels for P-47C/D - Block Tread, Diamond Tread and Cross Tread. No tire pattern fits to the photo above.
On the other side, there are the British 4-Slot 32" main wheels with staggered block tire tread

for many British postwar aircraft when operating primarily from concrete runways or carrier decks at http://barracudacals.com/proddetail.php?prod=BR48151
According to the http://www.rcwarbirds.com/Advisors/Histroical/Historical6.htm#q122 P-47 had 34x9,9” tires. Those British wheels are 32”, e.g. there is 6% difference in the diameter, almost unnoticeable in 1:48.
However, tire pattern fits to the photo almost perfectly.
IMHO, after adding covers on the wheel discs they could be quite acceptable option for (at least) 1/48 kit. I'll appreciate your opinion.