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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Making a tank look more like steel?
Das_Abteilung
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Posted: Saturday, August 12, 2017 - 03:25 AM UTC
I agree that much wear and tear weathering is hugely overdone. Artistry has perhaps overtaken realism and reality. In WW2, vehicles had very short combat lives and rarely survived long enough to get into the sort of dilapidated, sometimes almost paint-less, state that many modellers depict.

And the only damn fool question is the one you don't ask when you should. The purpose of forums like this is to help those who need help and knowledge, not be critical of or sarcastic about that lack of knowledge or to make ourselves look good. We all started somewhere, and it isn't where we are today.

People tend to forget that the only bright metal you might see worn on an AFV - stand fast track and sprocket wearing surfaces - would be sheet-metal parts like stowage bins, and weld metal. The latter seems to remain bright metal regardless. Armour plate adopts a dark brown colour as part of the heat treatment and carburisation process and, while not being strictly stainless, often contains substances like nickel and the afore-mentioned carbon that serve to inhibit rust. So wear through would be to that dark brown and not to bright shiny metal. The light metal parts would of course tend to rust.

Graphite powder and pencils are excellent for reproducing metal edges and areas that are highly-trafficked and worn. I find that metallic pigments tend to get where you don't want them to be and are often then hard to get rid of. Graphite is quite dense and falls or blows off more easily. I have a set of wooden drawing pencils in a range of hard and soft grades. I also have several grades of solid graphite pencils, where the long side of the point can be used to good effect and wider effects can be achieved by shaping the point. Carpenter's pencils with their thick soft rectangular core can be useful too. Use sand paper to shape, catch the dust and there's your free graphite powder to use on a finger, cotton bud, etc. A finger tip is my preferred tool for doing the outside of tracks

Shell and bullet strikes would contain smears of the projectile material and the local momentary melting would potentially alter the metallurgy at that point, so rusting may result.

German gun barrels were finished in a dark grey heat-resistant lacquer and not always painted at the tank factory or if replaced in the field. So any wear through the panzer grey, dunkelgelb, etc top coat would initially be to that dark grey. AFAIK wear through to bare metal was unusual except for impact damage.

High manganese tracks wear to an almost golden shade with a hint of brown, and not especially bright. Outside face wear on ordinary steel tracks is best represented with graphite, not shiny paint or pigment. The running contact surfaces inside will however most usually be highly polished if the vehicle is in use. I use a metaliser paste on a flat brush or cotton swab. But watch where the wheels and teeth contact the tracks. It isn't usually full-width so you get a striped effect of polished and dirty. A Jagdtiger, for example - assuming Henschel suspension and standard tracks - will have 8 points of contact between tracks, wheels, idlers and sprockets. Some of which will overlap, but I'm sure there is an un-worn strip between the outer road wheels and the sprocket teeth, and of course no shiny wear outside the sprockets. Paper stumps or cotton buds can be used for a bit of burnishing.

Hope some of these potted observations are helpful.
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 01:04 PM UTC
I still use Graphite , that I got from my first real job , back in 73.
I was told could take a Planters Peanut jar of it home , as we got it in big buckets. Still almost full. A little goes a long way.
Dang that was 44 years ago.

Enjoy.

Taylortony
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Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 - 02:34 AM UTC
George and others, I recommend you read the IS3 article on here

http://ak-interactive.com/v2/downloads-2/tutorials/
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 01:52 PM UTC

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I don't mean to hijack your thread, but can somebody who's tried give us pros and cons of graphite, over purpose made pigment? I've only used graphite. However, I am looking at purchasing Mig's Dark Iron or Steel piment(s).



Easy, back in the day we didn't have all these ready made pigments, washes, filters, mud and other stuff that are now available so we made our own. Graphite was what there was/is plus it's a lot cheaper. You can use it directly from a pencil, grind it yourself on some sand paper, get graphite powder lube (messy). The pros for the ready made is you can get more shade variations. And It's probably not graphite so it's not such a mess to apply.



Thank you for the succinct answer. One thing I like about graphite is being able to apply it, directly from a pencil. I've never noticed that it is too much of a mess. I'm afraid I would not know which shade of pigment to use where.



Matt-- you can make your own "steel pigment" just by rubbing a number 2 pencil over some sandpaper. I use it both ways-- and for 40 years now I've never purchased a commercial "steel" pigment. Also, you can use a pencil to simulate battle damage marks in armor by using a drill bit to make a small indentation, then using the pencil point to rub in the indentation.
VR, Russ



I never thought trying a drill bit to simulate damage. I am working, on a project right now that will benefit from this technique. Thank you.

I apologize for taking this off topic George.
brekinapez
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 01:30 PM UTC
I use graphite on just about every armor build I do. Even a few aircraft when appropriate. With some practice you can get a number of useful effects out of one little pencil.
joepanzer
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 01:27 PM UTC
I believe Derwent makes a set of tinted graphite pencils that might serve to imitate the different metal "flavors"??

I have a set that act as watercolor pencils. But it's graphite. And it totally changes the color.

Strange.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 11:08 AM UTC

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I don't mean to hijack your thread, but can somebody who's tried give us pros and cons of graphite, over purpose made pigment? I've only used graphite. However, I am looking at purchasing Mig's Dark Iron or Steel piment(s).



Easy, back in the day we didn't have all these ready made pigments, washes, filters, mud and other stuff that are now available so we made our own. Graphite was what there was/is plus it's a lot cheaper. You can use it directly from a pencil, grind it yourself on some sand paper, get graphite powder lube (messy). The pros for the ready made is you can get more shade variations. And It's probably not graphite so it's not such a mess to apply.



Thank you for the succinct answer. One thing I like about graphite is being able to apply it, directly from a pencil. I've never noticed that it is too much of a mess. I'm afraid I would not know which shade of pigment to use where.



Matt-- you can make your own "steel pigment" just by rubbing a number 2 pencil over some sandpaper. I use it both ways-- and for 40 years now I've never purchased a commercial "steel" pigment. Also, you can use a pencil to simulate battle damage marks in armor by using a drill bit to make a small indentation, then using the pencil point to rub in the indentation.
VR, Russ
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 10:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but can somebody who's tried give us pros and cons of graphite, over purpose made pigment? I've only used graphite. However, I am looking at purchasing Mig's Dark Iron or Steel piment(s).



Easy, back in the day we didn't have all these ready made pigments, washes, filters, mud and other stuff that are now available so we made our own. Graphite was what there was/is plus it's a lot cheaper. You can use it directly from a pencil, grind it yourself on some sand paper, get graphite powder lube (messy). The pros for the ready made is you can get more shade variations. And It's probably not graphite so it's not such a mess to apply.



Thank you for the succinct answer. One thing I like about graphite is being able to apply it, directly from a pencil. I've never noticed that it is too much of a mess. I'm afraid I would not know which shade of pigment to use where.
Scarred
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 10:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but can somebody who's tried give us pros and cons of graphite, over purpose made pigment? I've only used graphite. However, I am looking at purchasing Mig's Dark Iron or Steel piment(s).



Easy, back in the day we didn't have all these ready made pigments, washes, filters, mud and other stuff that are now available so we made our own. Graphite was what there was/is plus it's a lot cheaper. You can use it directly from a pencil, grind it yourself on some sand paper, get graphite powder lube (messy). The pros for the ready made is you can get more shade variations. And It's probably not graphite so it's not such a mess to apply.
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 10:37 AM UTC
I don't mean to hijack your thread, but can somebody who's tried give us pros and cons of graphite, over purpose made pigment? I've only used graphite. However, I am looking at purchasing Mig's Dark Iron or Steel piment(s).
Namabiiru
#399
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 09:19 AM UTC

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These guides might help George

http://www.migjimenez.com/en/content/7-downloads-ammo-of-mig-jimenez

Back to the Jagdtiger he has used the burnishing well around the top of the turret to accentuate the thickness of the armour plate, thus giving it mass and depth that equates to the feeling of solidity and weight.



The MIG dark steel pigment is the answer here. Thanks.

That's the answer. No Lecture. See how easy that was.



I like the MIG dark steel and use it quite a bit where bare steel is needed. AFAIK a cheap tube of graphite (which I think someone already mentioned) works as well. Have not tried any of the other metallic pigments yet.

George587
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 08:53 AM UTC

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These guides might help George

http://www.migjimenez.com/en/content/7-downloads-ammo-of-mig-jimenez

Back to the Jagdtiger he has used the burnishing well around the top of the turret to accentuate the thickness of the armour plate, thus giving it mass and depth that equates to the feeling of solidity and weight.



The MIG dark steel pigment is the answer here. Thanks.

That's the answer. No Lecture. See how easy that was.
George587
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 08:50 AM UTC

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I was a little confused about this posting, until I did as he said and looked at "Wilber Wright Trumpeter BR 52". This bring us to the FSM web page. I take it George is "Wilber Wright", since his FSM profile matches what he's said above. He's done a nice clean build of the BR 52 (although PB has deleted his images on the actual FSM website-- a problem most of you are experiencing here as well). I don't "Google" I use "Bing" and his photos come up there in the "Image"section with a link to the FSM blog. It doesnt look like there is much weathering on his BR 52, but all I can see at FSM are laudatory comments on his build-- I don't see any "nonsense" thier either. For the life of me, I don't see what "nonsense" he's referring to at either site. George buddy-- you need to be a little more clear on what you want and what you mean. Several folks have steered you in the right direction.
VR, Russ



How much clearer could the original question have been? Then someone that doesn't know me is going to lecture a master modeler asking a precise question that it's called "Weathering. Really? Several good answers and a dose of lecturing condescending replies from a couple, when they don't know me, my experience, or general expertise.

Removed by original poster on 08/02/17 - 13:44:34 (GMT).
Taylortony
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Posted: Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 01:48 AM UTC
These guides might help George

http://www.migjimenez.com/en/content/7-downloads-ammo-of-mig-jimenez

Back to the Jagdtiger he has used the burnishing well around the top of the turret to accentuate the thickness of the armour plate, thus giving it mass and depth that equates to the feeling of solidity and weight.
AgentG
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 03:51 PM UTC

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Suspension droop and track sag help create the illusion of mass. Minor adjustments to roadwheels and idler wheels will help get that 'heavy' feeling.



When I attach the suspension arms, I place the hull on a flat surface and put a ziplock bag full of coins inside. This gives the suspension a lower set and I believe, conveys a sense of weight.

G
Kevlar06
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 11:24 AM UTC
I was a little confused about this posting, until I did as he said and looked at "Wilber Wright Trumpeter BR 52". This bring us to the FSM web page. I take it George is "Wilber Wright", since his FSM profile matches what he's said above. He's done a nice clean build of the BR 52 (although PB has deleted his images on the actual FSM website-- a problem most of you are experiencing here as well). I don't "Google" I use "Bing" and his photos come up there in the "Image"section with a link to the FSM blog. It doesnt look like there is much weathering on his BR 52, but all I can see at FSM are laudatory comments on his build-- I don't see any "nonsense" thier either. For the life of me, I don't see what "nonsense" he's referring to at either site. George buddy-- you need to be a little more clear on what you want and what you mean. Several folks have steered you in the right direction.
VR, Russ
Scarred
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 10:40 AM UTC
It's not nonsense at all. There are articles, posts, how-to's all over this site covering years and techniques. All nicely worded, and rather than write a several thousand word reply on what he wants that may not cover everything we're telling him "hey, search the site!" the answer is there. A 30 minutes search, if that, and you will find what you need and several other things as well. And if you do find it hey, post the link maybe it's something we didn't read or would like to re-read. Also there are great books out there geared to this. Panzer Art and Mig Jimenez F.A.Q. 2 are great and you can watch Mig Jimenez Painting Master Class at IPMS Stockholm 2014 Day 1 and 2 on Youtube.
11Bravo_C2
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 10:39 AM UTC
I re-read every post and didn't perceive any condescending tones.
The OP asked for OPINIONS. He got them.
Namabiiru
#399
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 09:57 AM UTC
I think by "nonsense" he may have meant the rather condescending tone--intentional or unintentional--that can be detected in some (not all!) of the responses. It's generally a pretty friendly crowd here on KMN, but in online forums we don't have the benefit of hearing how our words might sound to someone who doesn't know what is in our mind.

IMHO, the simple, but probably not altogether helpful, answer to George's question is that there is no single technique used to achieve the results in that photo. It's going to be a combination of techniques that creates the depth and complexity to which I think George is referring when he says weight, and learning to apply those techniques effectively and in a balanced combination is something that doesn't lend itself to a simple answer.

The point made that mud and dust play a major role in the weathering process is valid; however, to say that a vehicle that emphasizes paint worn to bare metal is somehow not right is IMHO taking that point too far. Aesthetically, it is very appealing to some, and that is subjective. If every model produced was covered in mud and dust it would end up a pretty boring collection. I agree that the model in the photo was very well executed, and I like it. But that's just my opinion.

Scarred
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 04:31 AM UTC
We're not giving you nonsense, we're telling you where to look for your answer. You want us to tell you step by step how to do a thing and that's not going to happen. Search this site like I said to, start reading the results. The answer is there but yuo need to find it and not expect us to, once you find the answer, and the answer is going be what you like vs your skill, than you will be able to ask specific question. Not 'how do I do this' but 'I read this and tried it, it kinda worked but not quite so what did I do wrong'. Than we can answer your question. Or at least point you in the right direction. Also you need reference material, like the books and magazines. There are several that have how-to's on you subject.
11Bravo_C2
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 04:21 AM UTC

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It's called weathering. If you type "weathering" in the little search window at the top of the page you will get lots of results, tips, techniques, preferences and how to's. There are as many techniques out there as there are modelers. Start basic and work up. And it takes PRACTICE!! Get some cheap kits, ebay is a good source and use them. There are some good books out there that start out with the basics and take you to the advanced. Be warned. This is not something you pick up overnight. After more than 40 years I learn new stuff all the time.



It's called "Weathering"? I didn't know that.

I've built approx 150 armor models. If you google Wilbur Wright Trumpeter BR-52 you can get an idea on the images page.

I asked a very specific question and had hoped to avoid the nonsense one gets at the FineScale forum by coming here. I guess not.



What non-sense do you speak of? You asked a question and have received many good answers. Weathering is an artistic method and no amount of responses on how to do it will help you achieve the results of the Jagdtiger modeler. Practice, practice, practice.

As suggested, do a youtube search for Mig Jimenez, Michael Rinaldi, and Adam Wilder to name a few. Adam Wilder has a series of videos that take you step-by-step on his finishing techniques to achieve a heavily weathered/used tank.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ9GDtkHYnVmc3b8ttF5cyh8MiOWZ-e33

All the above mentioned artists have several publications on the subject of weathering.

p.s. There is a lot of good folk and information on this board. Keep an open mind and have patience.



George587
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 03:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It's called weathering. If you type "weathering" in the little search window at the top of the page you will get lots of results, tips, techniques, preferences and how to's. There are as many techniques out there as there are modellers. Start basic and work up. And it takes PRACTICE!! Get some cheap kits, ebay is a good source and use them. There are some good books out there that start out with the basics and take you to the advanced. Be warned. This is not something you pick up overnight. After more than 40 years I learn new stuff all the time.



It's called "Weathering"? I didn't know that.

I've built approx 100-120 armor models. If you google Wilbur Wright Trumpeter BR-52 you can get an idea on the images page.

I asked a very specific question and had hoped to avoid the nonsense one gets at the FineScale forum by coming here. I guess not.

Thanks to those of you giving reasonable replies to the question asked.
Scarred
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 03:30 AM UTC
Suspension droop and track sag help create the illusion of mass. Minor adjustments to roadwheels and idler wheels will help get that 'heavy' feeling.
AgentG
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Posted: Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 02:11 AM UTC
George, always keep in mind you are modeling a tank. It is big, heavy and imposing. It sits in the open where the elements and crew activity wear the upper surfaces. Operations wear the tracks and wheels.

You need to convey that sense of heaviness and mass. Exposed metal and chipping is part of it but IMHO, usually overdone. Paint fading, scratches and stains are more common. Dust and mud on the suspension depending on where it is operated.

HTH

G