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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
DAK colours?
phantom_phanatic309
#372
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Posted: Thursday, September 20, 2018 - 08:30 AM UTC
You look after your own car, truck or bike. Maintain it, keep it clean so why a would tank crew not treat it any differently?

And if you consider modern tanks. How many hundreds of thousands or millions of taxpayers dollars and pounds are they? You don't look after it and you're likely to find yourself in a fair bit of trouble!


brekinapez
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Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2018 - 10:15 AM UTC
^^^^ I agree with your statements. Waaaayyyyy too much weathering on a lot of vehicles. I think a lot of people confuse weathering with getting dirty. Weathering is what the elements do to something over time, like soil erosion. Vehicles, however, easily get dirty in rainy, muddy conditions but that stuff can be washed off.

Other than some light surface rust on chipped or worn areas and those exposed to heat oxidation, you should not be seeing rust as heavy as many modelers dump on their builds. Take care of your vehicle and it will take care of you; don't and you're likely to end up dead when something you neglected fails.
phantom_phanatic309
#372
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Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2018 - 09:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


....One thing I found interesting in those videos, was how a RAL paints would not fade beyond the original colour. And what effect do we all try to replicate? Admittedly it helps with a scale effect but it's food for thought.

Reminded me of a conversation I had with an old Churchill driver at a model show a few years back and how he felt weathering, particularly rust, was over done and unrealistic on many of the models on show. I keep that in mind quite often in my builds.




Yes-- good observation, as an old tanker myself, I find that modelers frequently overdo rust and weathering effects. Not that equipment doesn't wear out, and get incredibly dirty, but a lot of equipment isn't around long enough to get wickedly rusty. And some equipment isn't allowed to weather-- its repaired or replaced. When ones life depends on it, you tend to take care of it. That's not to say equipment doesn't take a beating, but making it a "rust bucket" isn't conducive to good operating order. Different "touch up" paint shades are also frequently overlooked by modelers who frequently go for the rust patches instead. Then one should also consider that for a lot of Axis equipment in DAK, , it was only in N. Africa for 2 1/2 years at best (except the Italians) and Allied equipment even less so(Americans). Commonwealth equipment might be an exception. So "rusting out" is probably overdoing it. I just saw a video and feature on another site this AM where the modeler heavily weathered the new 1/72 TAKOM V2, SS100 and Vidalwagen. He's obviously never read "Hitler's Rocket Soldiers". Those vehicles and equipment weren't around long enough to be that heavily weathered and the equipment was kept in top shape since the crews and equipment were considered "elite" troops. So your observations are correct-- a little well placed rust and dirt is OK, but one needs to consider the operational environment, usage rates and the environmental conditions as well.
VR, Russ



That's exactly what he said to me. His and the rest of the crews life depended on their tanks working well. So they were lovingly looked after. He also said crews took a lot of pride in the vehicles and an almost superstitious belief that the tank would see them home if they took care of her. And of course, the stark reality that many didn't last long enough to accumulate 40+ years of rust, which seems to be the thing. It's fantastic to get the perspective of an old tanker and I felt lucky to have met and spoke with him.

This would make an interesting thread all of it's own, but finishing techniques are constantly changing, adapting and going through fads if you will. I have a military modelling and figure manual from the mid 80's and almost everything is drybrushed. Barely a mention of oil washes. When I got into modelling in the late 90's oil washes on everything were the thing, then filters in the early 2000's and now onto pre and post shading to overemphasize paint fading. And of course heavy rusting.
I'm sure some other technique will replace this in a couple of years.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Thursday, September 13, 2018 - 06:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text


....One thing I found interesting in those videos, was how a RAL paints would not fade beyond the original colour. And what effect do we all try to replicate? Admittedly it helps with a scale effect but it's food for thought.

Reminded me of a conversation I had with an old Churchill driver at a model show a few years back and how he felt weathering, particularly rust, was over done and unrealistic on many of the models on show. I keep that in mind quite often in my builds.




Yes-- good observation, as an old tanker myself, I find that modelers frequently overdo rust and weathering effects. Not that equipment doesn't wear out, and get incredibly dirty, but a lot of equipment isn't around long enough to get wickedly rusty. And some equipment isn't allowed to weather-- its repaired or replaced. When ones life depends on it, you tend to take care of it. That's not to say equipment doesn't take a beating, but making it a "rust bucket" isn't conducive to good operating order. Different "touch up" paint shades are also frequently overlooked by modelers who frequently go for the rust patches instead. Then one should also consider that for a lot of Axis equipment in DAK, , it was only in N. Africa for 2 1/2 years at best (except the Italians) and Allied equipment even less so(Americans). Commonwealth equipment might be an exception. So "rusting out" is probably overdoing it. I just saw a video and feature on another site this AM where the modeler heavily weathered the new 1/72 TAKOM V2, SS100 and Vidalwagen. He's obviously never read "Hitler's Rocket Soldiers". Those vehicles and equipment weren't around long enough to be that heavily weathered and the equipment was kept in top shape since the crews and equipment were considered "elite" troops. So your observations are correct-- a little well placed rust and dirt is OK, but one needs to consider the operational environment, usage rates and the environmental conditions as well.
VR, Russ
phantom_phanatic309
#372
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Posted: Thursday, September 13, 2018 - 05:39 AM UTC
I've been working watching a couple of those.
I did see the one about repainting the Tigers in their original colours and how they got the correct colour matches. They did cover DAK paints but very briefly, but confirmed what we discussed in the thread.

One thing I found interesting in those videos, was how a RAL paints would not fade beyond the original colour. And what effect do we all try to replicate? Admittedly it helps with a scale effect but it's food for thought.

Reminded me of a conversation I had with an old Churchill driver at a model show a few years back and how he felt weathering, particularly rust, was over done and unrealistic on many of the models on show. I keep that in mind quite often in my builds.




PzDave
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Posted: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 07:41 PM UTC
I just happened to watch a You Tube video _Tank Chats" from the British Tank museum. It was on that very topic. I don't remember the exact topic of the 10 minute video but it should be easy yo find.
phantom_phanatic309
#372
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Posted: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 06:38 PM UTC
I'll pick up a couple of jars and see how I get on with them.
I usually use Winsor and Newton acrylic flow improver for thinning. Works really well every acrylic I've tried, especially Revell. Theirs are far too gloopy straight out of the jar, but a drop of that and they brush beautifully.
Doesn't work with Tamiya, but their paint isn't a true acrylic despite the claim on the jar.

Vicious
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Posted: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 12:36 PM UTC
Me to I was a Humbrol only the try the Mission Models paint and fall in love...lifecolor are acrylic thinner than Vallejo I have many sets but usually I use them by hairy stick to spray if I have to I thin them with Ultimate modelling products thinner to spray many people find them little bit tricky you can thin also with water
phantom_phanatic309
#372
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Posted: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 11:46 AM UTC
Cool. I'll have a look at those.

Are they an acrylic or enamel? Used to be a sole enamel user (Humbrol) until I found how much more user friendly Vallejo were. Especially for airbrushing. Still prefer the harder wearing of enamel, but don't miss the longer drying times and smell!
Vicious
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Posted: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 11:35 AM UTC
In uk the airbrushes.com they stock them

https://airbrushes.com/index.php?cPath=400_4_429_202
phantom_phanatic309
#372
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Posted: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 11:25 AM UTC
Thanks. I'll check what that compares to my usual paint brands that mt lhs stocks. Never been able to find anyone stocking Lifecolor in the UK.

I'll have to check references as to when production ended, but I suspect that the IV ausf D would be a good candidate for an oversprayed dark grey vehicle.

Vicious
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Posted: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 11:12 AM UTC
for Italians the best colors are lifecolors set but you can also buy singles pot, usually the color used in Africa was the "Giallo Sabbia Chiaro" UA-217, there was also the "Giallo Sabbia Scuro" UA 218 but if I remember well it was not present in Africa, the Italians started with the camo after the African campain.

https://www.astromodelstore.com/acrylic-colours-lifecolor-for-regio-esercito-tankscs08.html

looks like the italian "Giallo sabbia Chiaro" (Sand yellow light) is similar to German RAL 8020
phantom_phanatic309
#372
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Posted: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 - 08:43 AM UTC
Hi,
Back again with another question regarding DAK colours.
If some of the first vehicles arrived in the original dark grey and were overpainted with Italian paint, what colours did the Italian army use? And any truth to occasional references to captured British paint being used?

Still working on the Pzkpfw II as and when I can grab a few minutes. I've also picked up the old tool Tamiya Pzkpfw IV to build in DAK colours and I have to say it's a really nice looking kit despite its age and cheap price. Far better than their pzkpfw II. Also been looking at a Dragon pzkpfw III trop that my lhs has on the shelf. Maybe after next payday I'll grab it. Something to tackle when I'm happy with my experiments on the cheap Tamiyas.
phantom_phanatic309
#372
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Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 - 03:03 AM UTC
Those are some interesting photos. On black and white it certainly does look like sand over grey due to the contrast. Colourizing reveals something different.
I suppose the best thing is to think about the dates the photos were taken (if indeed we can get a date.
Given me a lot to think about and like British desert vehicles, lots of interesting finish options!

I picked up the paints today and tested them on some scrap. The difference between the early and late shades is not something I expected. RAL8020 and 7027 are very pale compared to the early colours. I'm going to enjoy building and painting these old kits.

Thanks again for everyones help.
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brekinapez
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 10:41 AM UTC
Who are you referring to when you say 'we'? I always thought of vehicles in Africa being painted to suit the terrain; I actually learned the initial wave of vehicles were standard dark gray only about eight years ago, and I am 54 now.
AgentG
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Posted: Thursday, August 09, 2018 - 10:36 AM UTC
This is what makes modeling vehicles from the North African Campaign so much fun. The variety in finishes seen is astounding and offers so much potential.
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