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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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194th Tank Battalion M3 stuart info
Cbacon84
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Posted: Tuesday, February 12, 2019 - 05:25 PM UTC
For a while now I've been trying to find information on the the 194th tank battalion company C which was from my home town but as it was a provisional unit made up of National guard units from across the country and that the unit was al but destroyed at the end of the Philippians campaign the goings been slow. My goal for this was to try mainly find information on the M3 Stuarts that they used so I could try and build a model of it with the correct markings.

So I thought I would share what I have found, hopefully to help anyone else who would be interested in modeling tanks from this unit.
One caveat though is some of this when it comes to tank numbers is speculation due to no records, that I could find at least saying which tank was shipped where and very little photo evidence showing tank numbers.

Also, if anyone with more/ better info want to add to this feel free.

194th was given 54 M3 when they were shipped to the Philippians in early September. Of the Photos I could find there are only 2 that show the registry number, #W-301425 "Aurora" commanded by Lt. Lloyd MaGill tank #325 and W-301436 tank #336. If all tanks were assigned were sequential the tanks given to the unit are from the middle/end of production run #129 - 329 USA Reg #301229 – 301429, from American Car and Foundry's Berwick PA plat dated 5-1941 and all or part of Run 330-341 USA Reg #301430 - 301441 from the same plant dated 6-1941 and both part of purchase order T-352 -2

This would also be right after the switch from riveted D37812 turret to the welded D38976 turret something that seems to be confirmed by the pictures i fond of both the 192nd and 194th. Even though the 192nd did not depart until the end of October, the first D39273 would not be added until tank #1946 and if the 192nds Sgt. Willard von Bergen tank "Helen" is anything to go on the 192nd 50 or so tanks came from run 628-825.

As for the sponson mounted machine guns tanks varied as to whether they had them equipped or the sponsors riveted up.

For the markings, the norm seemed to be the standard olive drab with USA and army Registration Numbers on the side. Helen from the 192nd show these in blue so one would assume this held true for the earlier tanks of the 194th. In the case of Aurora we also see the Registration number hand painted in white on the sides and back of the turret; maybe to let other tankers pick out allied tanks easier i don’t know.

How I'm planning on building a 194th M3 (a thread for another time) is by kitbashing an Academy M3"Honey" with parts from the Tamiya's Stuart which should give me a nice approximation of an the early M3 with the sponson machine guns active. There seemed to have been some resin parts out there for the D38976 turret but they seem to be hard to find now.

As I said earlier hope with helps anyone interested in making M3's from the 194th and to some extent 192nd tank battalions and if anyone has more or better info feel free to add and I'll update the top post.

tankmodeler
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Posted: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 - 04:17 AM UTC
If I may suggest, you're far better off using the new Tamiya M3 as the base of the kitbash and only using as little of the Academy kit as possible. The octagonal turret is under detailed and, frankly a bit undersized, but can be made OK. The Academy hull has many of the issues of the old Tamiya M3 kit including a quite undersized turret ring and poorly placed engine air inlet and incorrect fender location and angles. The Academy running gear is a poor pantographed copy of the old Tamiya parts to the extent that they are interchangeable. The detail on the Academy parts is inferior to the originals, the only positive being that the wheels are the right width, but, frankly, that doesn't make up for the soft detail.

Paul
Cbacon84
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Posted: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 - 06:00 AM UTC
Thanks Paul. That kind of has been my thoughts too as I've looking more into the new kit. Only reason I got the academy kit was that it was the easiest way for me to get a hexagonal style turret and would work with the old Tamiya kit. Only thing now is that I'm going to have 3 M3s in the stash
panamadan
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Posted: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 - 06:30 AM UTC
Casey,
I’m interested in this subject as well as I served in the 194th Tank Bn, MN National Guard (the unit is still active).
Aco in Brainerd MN always was sent to the Philippines and did not come back.
Dan
Cbacon84
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Posted: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 - 07:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Casey,
I’m interested in this subject as well as I served in the 194th Tank Bn, MN National Guard (the unit is still active).
Aco in Brainard MN always was sent to the Philippines and did not come back.
Dan


First, thank you for your service.
Always glad to see others interested in this overlooked unit. Company C of the 194th as always interested me because of the memorials around Salinas, Bataan memorial park, M3 half track memorial at the historic society and an M5 tank memorial at one of the cemetery. And your right many did not come back. Salinas had the distinction of having the highest number of soldiers per capita of any city in the march with 105 of the 114 men of company C from the area and only 46 making it back home at wars end.
If you don't already have it a lot of the documents I pulled from came from the Bataan project web site which is the most centralized source I've found online https://bataanproject.com/194th_Homepage.html
Lots of great prewar photos of Company A
panamadan
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Posted: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 - 08:50 AM UTC
Camp ripley, MN has a great display about the “Brainard Boys”.
Have you read Col. Miller’s book about his time commanding the 194th?
Very interesting.
Dan
panamadan
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Posted: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 - 08:55 AM UTC
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/6zhd77/m2a4_nina_and_a_m4a4_76mm_of_the_194th_tank/
D
Cbacon84
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Posted: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 - 09:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Camp ripley, MN has a great display about the “Brainard Boys”.
Have you read Col. Miller’s book about his time commanding the 194th?
Very interesting.
Dan


Haven't read Millers book yet but its on my reading list.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 - 08:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

it was the easiest way for me to get a hexagonal style turret and would work with the old Tamiya kit.


Yeah, butt he old Tamiya M3 is e real dog by comparison to the newer kits on the market and the Academy kit is a dog because they copied so much of the earlier kit. Best to use the New Tamiya kit and the Academy turret (and very little else from that kit) and give the old Tamiya M3 to a kid or a club looking for build-and-take donations. It still builds excellently, but it's not at all accurate.

Quoted Text

Only thing now is that I'm going to have 3 M3s in the stash.


You say that like there's a problem there! Says the man with probably 10 Stuarts of various makes in the stash.

Paul
Cbacon84
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Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 - 05:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

it was the easiest way for me to get a hexagonal style turret and would work with the old Tamiya kit.


Yeah, butt he old Tamiya M3 is e real dog by comparison to the newer kits on the market and the Academy kit is a dog because they copied so much of the earlier kit. Best to use the New Tamiya kit and the Academy turret (and very little else from that kit) and give the old Tamiya M3 to a kid or a club looking for build-and-take donations. It still builds excellently, but it's not at all accurate.

Quoted Text

Only thing now is that I'm going to have 3 M3s in the stash.


You say that like there's a problem there! Says the man with probably 10 Stuarts of various makes in the stash.

Paul


Ended up getting the new Stuart and will be using that for the base, hopefully the academy turret doesn't have to many fit issues. probably will end up keeping the old Tamiya and the rest of the Academy kit just for practice/ weekend fun builds.
TheGreatPumpkin
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Posted: Friday, February 22, 2019 - 11:28 AM UTC
Hi Casey, et al,
The book you want is: "Organization and Markings of United States Army Armored Units 1918-1941" by Charles Lemons. It'll set you back about $30-40 and contians all of the armored units of the U.S. Army from 1918-1941. You can get it on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Organization+and+Markings+of+United+States+Army+Armored+Units+1918-1941&ref=nb_sb_noss

Regards,
Georg



panamadan
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Posted: Friday, February 22, 2019 - 01:00 PM UTC
Casey,
I bet you can scratch build that turret as its all straight plates.
Look closely at the back deck as I would imagine the 194th's tanks had the original fuel caps.
Dan
chris1
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Posted: Friday, February 22, 2019 - 03:52 PM UTC
Casey,
Check this out, if you haven't seen it already, from the Chieftain (of World of Tanks)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StKbLprUxFI

Chris