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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Green Tiger migration
b2nhvi
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Posted: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 - 08:45 PM UTC
Saw something on line about green tigers at Kursk. Did the mythical Green Tunisian Tigers migrate north, or what?
PanzerKarl
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Posted: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 - 11:18 PM UTC
This one has been done to death over the past years.
There are numerous topics all over the forums.
b2nhvi
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 12:54 AM UTC
I'd heard about the "report" of a green tiger in North Africa .... ad nauseum. Hadn't heard the Russian version.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 01:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'd heard about the "report" of a green tiger in North Africa ....



There were also reports of a 'Pink Panther' in Indochina...
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 06:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Saw something on line about green tigers at Kursk. Did the mythical Green Tunisian Tigers migrate north, or what?


In Tigers in Combat, Volume 1, by Wolfgang Schneider. it's reported that the 503rd Battalion's maintenance officer didn't want to be bothered applying a three-color camouflage to the whole battalion, so he dumped all the colors in together (and from 800 yards away, the individual colors would blur anyway). Presumably, a muddy, light olive green would have been the result. This is based on veterans' recollections forty-some years after the fact, of course.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 09:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Saw something on line about green tigers at Kursk. Did the mythical Green Tunisian Tigers migrate north, or what?


In Tigers in Combat, Volume 1, by Wolfgang Schneider. it's reported that the 503rd Battalion's maintenance officer didn't want to be bothered applying a three-color camouflage to the whole battalion, so he dumped all the colors in together (and from 800 yards away, the individual colors would blur anyway). Presumably, a muddy, light olive green would have been the result. This is based on veterans' recollections forty-some years after the fact, of course.



Hi, Gerald!

You know, I remember reading a few stories about "Green" Tiger Is being seen in Tunisia, 1943. I forget exactly which books that I read these stories in, but yes, I did read about "Green" Tiger Is in several different publications. I remember reading one story about these Tiger Is having been painted in OLIVE DRAB, which was "appropriated" from stocks of captured US Army paint. How true this is, I have no idea. This story might even have been a total fabrication...(?) Maybe you, or someone else could shed some light..?

Side-note: I have a DRAGON ARMOR "die-cast" 1/35 Tiger I supposedly "Afrika Korps", No. "142"; it is factory-painted in a sort of PALE OLIVE color that COULD pass for a really faded FS-34087 OD, after it had been parked out in the desert for a couple of years...

Egh, who knows..? I CERTAINLY don't...
smorko
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 09:28 AM UTC
I think that was officer Dontgive A. Schmitt. If the story is true, thats a totaly different level of lazy...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 09:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'd heard about the "report" of a green tiger in North Africa ....



There were also reports of a 'Pink Panther' in Indochina...



Frenchy
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 09:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There were also reports of a 'Pink Panther' in Indochina...



That was no BS. Here's a declassified document from the CIA



H.P.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 10:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

There were also reports of a 'Pink Panther' in Indochina...



That was no BS. Here's a declassified document from the CIA



H.P.





How about a "Purple Churchill"... Somewhere... Anywhere..?
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 10:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think that was officer Dontgive A. Schmitt. If the story is true, thats a totaly different level of lazy...



I heard that the order was given by a certain Feldwebel Messaschitt...

THIS could go on and on, you know...
Byrden
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 07:42 PM UTC
In late 1942 amd early 1943, the mandated colour scheme for all Tigers operating in central Russia and south of there, was "tropical".

The Tiger factory still had a stock of the original 1941 "tropical" paints, so that's what they used.

Therefore the overwhelming majority of Tigers in Spring 1943 were painted like Bovington's "131". This was described by British troops in Africa as "green".

There is zero evidence, in eight hundred photographs, of any African Tigers being repainted while in service.

David
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 10:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

In late 1942 amd early 1943, the mandated colour scheme for all Tigers operating in central Russia and south of there, was "tropical".

The Tiger factory still had a stock of the original 1941 "tropical" paints, so that's what they used.

Therefore the overwhelming majority of Tigers in Spring 1943 were painted like Bovington's "131". This was described by British troops in Africa as "green".

There is zero evidence, in eight hundred photographs, of any African Tigers being repainted while in service.

David



Thank You, David... I'm much more inclined to "go" with your information, as this seems to be the most logical explanation to the question that was originally posted by Timothy...
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2019 - 06:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Saw something on line about green tigers at Kursk. Did the mythical Green Tunisian Tigers migrate north, or what?


In Tigers in Combat, Volume 1, by Wolfgang Schneider. it's reported that the 503rd Battalion's maintenance officer didn't want to be bothered applying a three-color camouflage to the whole battalion, so he dumped all the colors in together (and from 800 yards away, the individual colors would blur anyway). Presumably, a muddy, light olive green would have been the result. This is based on veterans' recollections forty-some years after the fact, of course.



Hi, Gerald!

You know, I remember reading a few stories about "Green" Tiger Is being seen in Tunisia, 1943. I forget exactly which books that I read these stories in, but yes, I did read about "Green" Tiger Is in several different publications. I remember reading one story about these Tiger Is having been painted in OLIVE DRAB, which was "appropriated" from stocks of captured US Army paint. How true this is, I have no idea. This story might even have been a total fabrication...(?) Maybe you, or someone else could shed some light..?

Side-note: I have a DRAGON ARMOR "die-cast" 1/35 Tiger I supposedly "Afrika Korps", No. "142"; it is factory-painted in a sort of PALE OLIVE color that COULD pass for a really faded FS-34087 OD, after it had been parked out in the desert for a couple of years...

Egh, who knows..? I CERTAINLY don't...



There are two sources for the Green Tiger story, and they are somewhat entangled. The US Tech Intel report done for the Army on knocked out Tigers in North Africa was mainly devoted to important issues, like armor thickness, firepower, engine and transmission design, and so forth, but there is a sentence devoted to camouflage, which Major Jarrett simply described as "green."

Decades later, Wolfgang Schneider asked German veterans about green painted Tigers, and they reported that they repainted some equipment in captured US No. 9 Olive Drab (better suited to the more temperate zones in Tunisia), and that started this whole fad in model building. However, a researcher must be very careful about planting ideas while asking questions, as that could affect the recollection of the witness.

Since the publication of Schneider's Tigers in Combat Vol 1, color photos taken for Life Magazine of German Tiger wrecks in Tunisia have been unearthed, which show them in tropical colors.

During restoration, it was discovered that the Bovington Tiger had been painted using leftover stocks of the 1941 tropical colors, not the 1942 paints, and one of the 1941 colors was indeed greenish.
b2nhvi
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2019 - 09:08 PM UTC
Thanks guys. But we got lost. Question was regarding green tigers in Russia .... O.K, Kursk is Ukraine but .... Which I presume is the same answer as green Tunisian tigers. Someone on another site is fostering the idea of green Tigers (from S.Pz Abt.503). Guy doesn't seem too bright and probably hasn't figured out Kursk isn't in in North Africa and thinks the old myth applies there too. (Green Tiger Mafia couldn't get the story to stick in Africa so ... "There must have been green ones in .. in... Yeah! Russia!" Next it'l be the Soviets used captured green tigers in Manchuria against the Japanese.
PanzerKarl
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2019 - 10:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks guys. But we got lost. Question was regarding green tigers in Russia .... O.K, Kursk is Ukraine but .... Which I presume is the same answer as green Tunisian tigers. Someone on another site is fostering the idea of green Tigers (from S.Pz Abt.503). Guy doesn't seem too bright and probably hasn't figured out Kursk isn't in in North Africa and thinks the old myth applies there too. (Green Tiger Mafia couldn't get the story to stick in Africa so ... "There must have been green ones in .. in... Yeah! Russia!" Next it'l be the Soviets used captured green tigers in Manchuria against the Japanese.



He's been looking at too many colourized photos
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2019 - 10:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Saw something on line about green tigers at Kursk. Did the mythical Green Tunisian Tigers migrate north, or what?


In Tigers in Combat, Volume 1, by Wolfgang Schneider. it's reported that the 503rd Battalion's maintenance officer didn't want to be bothered applying a three-color camouflage to the whole battalion, so he dumped all the colors in together (and from 800 yards away, the individual colors would blur anyway). Presumably, a muddy, light olive green would have been the result. This is based on veterans' recollections forty-some years after the fact, of course.



Hi, Gerald!

You know, I remember reading a few stories about "Green" Tiger Is being seen in Tunisia, 1943. I forget exactly which books that I read these stories in, but yes, I did read about "Green" Tiger Is in several different publications. I remember reading one story about these Tiger Is having been painted in OLIVE DRAB, which was "appropriated" from stocks of captured US Army paint. How true this is, I have no idea. This story might even have been a total fabrication...(?) Maybe you, or someone else could shed some light..?

Side-note: I have a DRAGON ARMOR "die-cast" 1/35 Tiger I supposedly "Afrika Korps", No. "142"; it is factory-painted in a sort of PALE OLIVE color that COULD pass for a really faded FS-34087 OD, after it had been parked out in the desert for a couple of years...

Egh, who knows..? I CERTAINLY don't...



There are two sources for the Green Tiger story, and they are somewhat entangled. The US Tech Intel report done for the Army on knocked out Tigers in North Africa was mainly devoted to important issues, like armor thickness, firepower, engine and transmission design, and so forth, but there is a sentence devoted to camouflage, which Major Jarrett simply described as "green."

Decades later, Wolfgang Schneider asked German veterans about green painted Tigers, and they reported that they repainted some equipment in captured US No. 9 Olive Drab (better suited to the more temperate zones in Tunisia), and that started this whole fad in model building. However, a researcher must be very careful about planting ideas while asking questions, as that could affect the recollection of the witness.

Since the publication of Schneider's Tigers in Combat Vol 1, color photos taken for Life Magazine of German Tiger wrecks in Tunisia have been unearthed, which show them in tropical colors.

During restoration, it was discovered that the Bovington Tiger had been painted using leftover stocks of the 1941 tropical colors, not the 1942 paints, and one of the 1941 colors was indeed greenish.



THANK YOU, GERALD!!! You REALLY came through with some great information which finally puts this question to bed. That is, for ME, anyway...
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, March 02, 2019 - 03:42 AM UTC
Was the original post about "green Tigers" referring to completely green painted, as a base coat, or green used as a secondary camoflage color? Some previously issued Tigers had green (and dark yellow) added over the gray base, and newly issued Tigers were either base dark yellow, or dark yellow with green and/or brown secondary color.
JPTRR
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RAILROAD MODELING
#051
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Posted: Saturday, March 02, 2019 - 04:24 AM UTC
Frenchy shoots - SCORES!

Gents, thanks for the discussion. After the debate a year or so ago I decided that for my "green" Tigers, their colors will be chosen based on the information from Bryden and Gerald.

But now what do I do with my Tiger painted in Italian Regia Aeronautica Verde Mimetico 3 (FS 34102)? (I had read they painted the Tigers with abandoned Italian A.F. greens. Made sense then.)

I hope that when another "newbie," who has missed this or previous threads on the subject, asks a similar question in the future, that we will all be willing to share what we know. Thanks gents!
ayovtshev
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Posted: Saturday, March 02, 2019 - 04:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

...Question was regarding green tigers in Russia .... O.K, Kursk is Ukraine but ...




Kursk is in Russia,not in Ukraine.Same as Orjol,Belgorod and Prokhorovka.

The MBL at the start of Zitadelle runs entirely on nowadays Russian territory, except for a small area on the road Sumy-Sudscha, which today belongs to Ukraine.

Byrden
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2019 - 01:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Someone on another site is fostering the idea of green Tigers (from S.Pz Abt.503).



The first batches of Tigers issued to all the SS units, to Grossdeutschland, and to Army units in central and southern Russia, were painted "tropical", that is, RAL 8000 / RAL 7008.

Just like Bovington's.

The first 20 Tigers issued to s.Pz.Abt. 503 were presumably "tropical" also. That is, Stab, 1 company and 2 company. However it's hard to prove that because they got whitewashed pronto.

There's one nice clear photo of the first "123" when it was almost new, and you can see some of the original paint, and it's clearly not close to black. So Dunkelgrau seems unlikely.

David